Fuck GM

[BlueSpread]

2007 Chevy Silverado Z-71. 13,900 miles. Wouldn't start after work yesterday. Damn near didn't start this morning.

I was one of the most vocal opponents of purchasing foreign cars. Here's a rundown of my families car buying....

My parents never had a problem... never anything more than routine maintence and aging....

'76 Chevy Truck
'80 Chevy Van
'86 Chevy Suburban
'90 Chevy Cavalier
'95 Chevy Truck
'08 Buick Lucerne (somebody retired, lol)

except
'99 Chevy Impala after 100,00 miles the theftlock started going popping at random
'05 Chevy Silverado 30,000 miles, all 4 tires went bad and the front brakes had to be completely replaced. This thing was rarely driven by a guy that isn't hard on vehicles, as seen in the previous listing.

My history (and wife):
'97 Chevy Cavalier
'99 Chevy Silverado
'02 Chevy Malibu - Blew a head gasket
'07 Chevy Silverado - Wouldn't start due to BCM module
'08 Chevy Cobalt

Toyota, here I come.

[TNTWolverine]

Too bad on that Silverado, I have a friend with a similar problem on his. I guess those lowered prices aren't low enough.

[GoGreen23]

I used to drive a Grand Prix but then I got tired of always fixing it. I've seriously replaced 60% of this car over the past three years and there's still a lot to do! Now I have a Dodge Stratus, and I've had 0 problems with it!

I wouldn't pin it all on GM though because every company has some problems with their cars.

[rickyleach]

F/gm,ford and ccchrysler, and get rid of those sorry asss uaw idiots. Let them sink, those greeeedy bastards

[bigboyBlue]

This is the bigger problem, bail them out now, but if you make a shitty product, ultimately you're going down anyways.

[The Michigan Man]

Toyota, here I come.

If you are all gung-ho about contributing to the Japanese economy, why not just move to Tokyo and buy your Toyota locally?

[TNTWolverine]

If you are all gung-ho about contributing to the Japanese economy, why not just move to Tokyo and buy your Toyota locally?

Who would want to drive around in Japan? I think the majority of the time you move on idle.

[BlueSpread]

If you are all gung-ho about contributing to the Japanese economy, why not just move to Tokyo and buy your Toyota locally?

I like your comment, but please note the nature of the "Rant" forum. I'm as likely to purchase a Toyota as I am a hole in the head.

[RealSchool]

If you are all gung-ho about contributing to the Japanese economy, why not just move to Tokyo and buy your Toyota locally?

If the parts come from a U.S. plant is it really just contributing to a Japanese economy? Lots of US workers depend on Honda and Toyota.

[The Michigan Man]

If the parts come from a U.S. plant is it really just contributing to a Japanese economy?

Absolutely. Where do you think the PROFITS go? The Japanese economy, not the US.

[BBA1994]

Absolutely. Where do you think the PROFITS go? The Japanese economy, not the US.

Then I trust you only vacation in the US and do not buy your kids any toys.

[The Michigan Man]

Then I trust you only vacation in the US and do not buy your kids any toys.

No, but I'm not in denial about where my money ends up when I buy foreign products or services.

[RealSchool]

No, but I'm not in denial about where my money ends up when I buy foreign products or services.

I am confused, it is ok for you to buy foreign goods and services but not us?

[The Michigan Man]

I am confused, it is ok for you to buy foreign goods and services but not us?

I agree, you are confused.

[RealSchool]

I agree, you are confused.


Nice non-answer. I understand why you wouldn't.

[The Michigan Man]

Nice non-answer. I understand why you wouldn't.

You are drawing absurd conclusions about a simple statement. Fact: despite the fact that foreign transplants in N. America hire local labor, the profits that are earned return to the economy of the foreign company.

To attempt to twist that into an overbroad, silly conclusion about vacationing or buying other foreign products is illogical, and misses the point.

[RealSchool]

You are drawing absurd conclusions about a simple statement. Fact: despite the fact that foreign transplants in N. America hire local labor, the profits that are earned return to the economy of the foreign company.

To attempt to twist that into an overbroad, silly conclusion about vacationing or buying other foreign products is illogical, and misses the point.


Half of the revenue for the corporation I work for comes from foreign countries. It works both ways and people that say "buy American" simply don't understand the way the world works.

My entire point is we all buy foreign (including you) and for you to lecture people about their purchases is comical.

[goblue]

I've always bought Chrysler. I have family members who worked there so I can get the employee discount.

I've leased the past eight years and this is definitely the way to go if you drive 15,000 miles a year or less. My typical payment for sign and drive, which means you literally sign papers, make no down payment and drive off, is anywhere from $250-275/month for 12,000 miles/year for a Dodge Caravan or Chrysler Town & Country.

I usually get a brand new minivan every 27 months. I don't have to deal with any car problems. The only money I put into it is an oil change every 3000 miles.

I have nothing but good things to say about Chrysler. They've been good to me and I'm happy with their performance.

However, my buying habits could change if Chrysler doesn't keep up the good work. I've talked to big three employees and from what I've heard is they're probably going to nickel and dime you for more money due to their troubles. Other stuff I've heard in the news is they're either going to stop leasing or raise lease prices. I've also heard they're going to reduce employee discount family members or reduce the discount.

Only time will tell when my lease expires in June, 09. If I can't lease, or my lease payments start going too far up, I've never thought I'd say this, but I would consider a Toyota or other foreign car if the payments were about the same. It comes down to economics and what's best for my family.

Everyone knows that many foreign cars perform better and are rated higher. The only reason I go with Chrysler is cause I can lease at a discount price cause of the employee discount.

My wife drives further to WalMart, which has many products from China, to go grocery shopping every week instead of going to Kroger which is right up at the corner. Why? Cause the grocery bill is $20 cheaper every week. It's no different with buying a vehicle.

I've always supported the big three and plan on doing so. But if they can't continue to come through with quality products or discount payments then screw them.

[The Michigan Man]

Half of the revenue for the corporation I work for comes from foreign countries. It works both ways and people that say "buy American" simply don't understand the way the world works.

My entire point is we all buy foreign (including you) and for you to lecture people about their purchases is comical.

Who is lecturing? I merely stated that buying foreign products primarily benefits foreign economies.

You can buy foreign sh*t until you're blue in the face, what do I care, but don't fool yourself into thinking that because you buy your kid a lead-painted Chinese piece of crap toy from Walmart that you are doing great things for the American economy merely because the cashier is an American.

[amazinblue]

If people really want to know the "root cause" of the auto industry problem - and, it's not just the US auto makers who are facing significant shortfalls in revenue / sales - the root cause is the unwillingness of financial institutions (who have received over $600B in bailouts) to lend money.

Automobiles are the second largest purchase 95+% of people make in their lifetimes. The largest purchase, a home. Think of how much you've spent (or will spend) in your lifetime on vehicles, and it's most likely even more than the cost of a college education.

And, the cost for vehicles - US or Foreign made isn't that much different. Obviously, health care and retirement benefits are hurting the US manufacturers. Personally, I would rather have the UAW - and have them realize things need to change, than a country employed by Wal Mart type companies and employees without healthcare benefits and a real living wage.

[michAGAIN]

I've done my part. In fact, I single-handedly brought the price of gas down. Six months ago I ordered a Ford Escape Hybrid. Gas was near 4/gallon. I was going to outsmart them. Gas has been falling from the minute I signed the papers. Just took delivery last week. Gas 1.69. I'm impressed so far, I've had it for one week and no major repairs needed yet. (By the way, it's normal to have a quart of oil on your garage floor each day, right?)

[RichRodriguez]

user error

i have a 03 alero with 87k miles and done zero repairs to it.

[RichRodriguez]

TOYOTA

brought to you buy the same people that gave us Pearl Harbor

[LAMfan]

If people really want to know the "root cause" of the auto industry problem - and, it's not just the US auto makers who are facing significant shortfalls in revenue / sales - the root cause is the unwillingness of financial institutions (who have received over $600B in bailouts) to lend money.

Automobiles are the second largest purchase 95+% of people make in their lifetimes. The largest purchase, a home. Think of how much you've spent (or will spend) in your lifetime on vehicles, and it's most likely even more than the cost of a college education.

And, the cost for vehicles - US or Foreign made isn't that much different. Obviously, health care and retirement benefits are hurting the US manufacturers. Personally, I would rather have the UAW - and have them realize things need to change, than a country employed by Wal Mart type companies and employees without healthcare benefits and a real living wage.

Amazin, you are, as always, right on target with this post. Yes there are problems with the UAW, like pay for laid-off employees, but the answer is not to have Americans work for cash and no benefits like health care and retirement. We all end up paying anyway as these people use critical care facilities for their healthcare.

And the cost of cars, second ranked expense as you point out, guts the effectiveness of arguments to buy American, when the foreign cars are higher quality products. I wanted to buy American, even after my 1982 Dodge charger died at 68K miles. The 20K or so I could afford to spend was close to my annual salary at the time. I looked at all the US cars, but could not, with personal regret, buy the crap that was available, when a Nissan Maxima bettered the comparable products in every way. That car gave me 209K without any problems (zero, not 1). I don't even see the US cars from the time still on the road.

There was a time when US cars were first rate in style, performance and quality. Blunders in the 70s opened the door for Japanese manufacturers based solely on fuel economy. We still had better styling and superior safety. But the Japanese manufacturers closed the gap, in part borrowing from our playbook of premium brands. Now, what do we offer that is competitive? Very little. The answer is not to close the boarders, or compete in limited and vulnerable segments of the market (SUVs) but to make better products all around. if it is not too late.

[gator]

I feel you man, my wife's got a Chevy Malibou, and.....
well it would just be easier to talk about what hasn't gone wrong. I HATE that fcking car.

[BLEEDINGBLUE]

Well I've had an F-150(2001-2003), Explorer(2003-2005), Expedition(2005-2008) and now a F-250. My wife has had an Explorer(2006-2008) and now has an Edge. Knock on would but we haven't had any problems on any of our cars. Actually, I take it back, I had to have the Edge serviced last month because the Navigation no longer worked. As it turns out it had nothing to do with the car, you see my wife put the Radar Detector above the GPS antenna therefore it couldn't receive a signal, haha. Anyways, the trucks I buy are similar to the golf equipment I purchase. Yea those brush tees look great and maybe they really do perform better but until I see them being used on tour, I am not buying any. Same goes with my trucks. As an engineer who visitis a lot of construction sites and pulls a 33' Formula in the summer time, I am not buying any Jap crap until I start to see them on the job sites pulling a machine or at the marina pulling a boat. One funny memory I have is last year, some guy was trying to pull his Grady White out of the water with his supercab tundra and actually slid down the ramp into the river. He slid so far down that the entire bed was under water and he had slid off the ramp. Well, God damn I wish I had my camera because here comes this little standard cab F-150 maybe late 90's early 2000's, throws a chain and tow strap around his rear hitch and the front tow hooks on the tundra and well what do ya know, that little F-150 pulled not only that big tundra out but the boat and trailer along with it. The best part was when the guy and his family who owned the boat thanked the guy in the F-150, The guy in the F-150 told him that if your gonna buy an American Boat, then buy an American Truck to tow it with. People were laughing their asses off. Well, anyways, thats my little story. P.S. the motors on the back were twin 250 Mercs which are American made in Big Ten Country as well.

[rickyleach]

man use guys are making me feel bad , my wife and i drive guetto sleds, i drive a 1985 olds and my wife has a 1987 sha -vette, but were happy and lifes good, gas prices are not a problem for us cause we cant go anywhere anyway, the economy doesnt affect us one bit..

[1OSUNUT]

Americans making bad cars was the reason the import cars began to sell in the first place. The big three all made some lousy cars in the 70's and 80's. That gave them a bad reputation and caused people to take a chance on the import cars. The import companies struck while the iron was hot and started building quality cars. That caused people to build confidence with them and not with American car builders. That gap continued to grow to the point where we are now. Even if America started building cars better then the import companies - they cannot overcome the reputation that have created for themselfs. That have to do things a lot better then the others and that just cannot be done. My driveway is full of Honda and Acura products and I love them. I have nothing other then routine maint and no problems - period. On the otherhand my parents have a $60,000 Caddy DTS that is in the shop almost monthly with some kind of hiccup. The facts are the facts. The US auto makers have over paid their employees for years and rewarded them for making lousy products. Now it has come home to roost.

[The Michigan Man]

Americans making bad cars was the reason the import cars began to sell in the first place. The big three all made some lousy cars in the 70's and 80's. That gave them a bad reputation and caused people to take a chance on the import cars. The import companies struck while the iron was hot and started building quality cars. That caused people to build confidence with them and not with American car builders. That gap continued to grow to the point where we are now. Even if America started building cars better then the import companies - they cannot overcome the reputation that have created for themselfs. That have to do things a lot better then the others and that just cannot be done. My driveway is full of Honda and Acura products and I love them. I have nothing other then routine maint and no problems - period. On the otherhand my parents have a $60,000 Caddy DTS that is in the shop almost monthly with some kind of hiccup. The facts are the facts. The US auto makers have over paid their employees for years and rewarded them for making lousy products. Now it has come home to roost.

If I remember correctly, you work for an autodealer. Therefore, I'm sure that you are aware that the difference in quality between domestic and foreign automakers is no longer statistically significant. I have had nothing but Big-3 products in my driveway for my adult life, and have never had a lemon. I used to work for a Big-3 corp, and I've owned a lot of them. If we want to take anecdotal evidence into account, my neighbor has a 2008 Lexus that has been perpetually in the shop since he bought it. Lemons are made by all manufacturers, not just the Big-3.

You are correct that it is all perception. The Big-3 sucked from the mid 70s until the late 90s. Once a buyer has a taste of a really bad product, it will forever influence future buying decisions, especially when the product costs so much $$$. Bad quality and wasteful union contracts destroyed the domestics. There should have been a radical changeover in the early 90s, but no one had the backbone to take on the UAW and tear up these ridiculous local and national contracts.

Today, there is no really no excuse to keep buying foreign. There is too much at stake with our own workforce and economy. What do you think is going to happen to the hundreds of thousands of employees, both direct and indirect (suppliers, restaurants that feed the workers, etc.) when these companies disappear? Please don't rebut by highlighting the presence of foreign manufacturers in the US - sure the labor $$ stay domestic, but the profits go back overseas. I'd much rather see the profits flow to Detroit than Tokyo or Seoul.

One of the big aspects of Japans dominance is the government subsidies that the automakers receive. They don't pay healthcare and get direct government financing - this is a huge factor in their dominance. There is also import controls, and a refusal to allow US cars (in any significant quantity) to be imported. The deck is stacked against US cars, and consumers reward the Japanese companies by continuing to buy their products.

The fact is, we're such a selfish (soulless?) society that we don't see a correlation in spurning domestic products and our bad economic situation.

[gator]

If I remember correctly, you work for an autodealer. Therefore, I'm sure that you are aware that the difference in quality between domestic and foreign automakers is no longer statistically significant. I have had nothing but Big-3 products in my driveway for my adult life, and have never had a lemon. I used to work for a Big-3 corp, and I've owned a lot of them. If we want to take anecdotal evidence into account, my neighbor has a 2008 Lexus that has been perpetually in the shop since he bought it. Lemons are made by all manufacturers, not just the Big-3.

You are correct that it is all perception. The Big-3 sucked from the mid 70s until the late 90s. Once a buyer has a taste of a really bad product, it will forever influence future buying decisions, especially when the product costs so much $$$. Bad quality and wasteful union contracts destroyed the domestics. There should have been a radical changeover in the early 90s, but no one had the backbone to take on the UAW and tear up these ridiculous local and national contracts.

Today, there is no really no excuse to keep buying foreign. There is too much at stake with our own workforce and economy. What do you think is going to happen to the hundreds of thousands of employees, both direct and indirect (suppliers, restaurants that feed the workers, etc.) when these companies disappear? Please don't rebut by highlighting the presence of foreign manufacturers in the US - sure the labor $$ stay domestic, but the profits go back overseas. I'd much rather see the profits flow to Detroit than Tokyo or Seoul.

One of the big aspects of Japans dominance is the government subsidies that the automakers receive. They don't pay healthcare and get direct government financing - this is a huge factor in their dominance. There is also import controls, and a refusal to allow US cars (in any significant quantity) to be imported. The deck is stacked against US cars, and consumers reward the Japanese companies by continuing to buy their products.

The fact is, we're such a selfish (soulless?) society that we don't see a correlation in spurning domestic products and our bad economic situation.


You know, MM, I get what you're saying, but I also agree with Nut (damn! that's twice in as many days). I personally want to buy American, but it doesn't make any sense when it isn't in my own best interest. I don't think you can discount people's experiences so frivolously and chalk it up to being soulless. To keep doing what isn't in your own best interest, forgive me for saying that you have anything in common with Obama, but it sounds like the Obama economic plan for our country. Oh...businesses are struggling and unemployment is way up....well, let's just raise taxes, force employers to supply healthcare, and/or pay additional taxes on HC benefits. If that's not enough, let's raise energy prices because that'll help overhead costs, and those people that are out of work won't mind $5/gal gas and higher prices at the supermarket. Sorry, that was a tangent, but you see the point.....it's not in our country's best interest to get this Utopia that Prez O dreams about, but he keeps trying to get it done anyway. That's insanity.

Personally, my wife and I have only ever owned Big3 vehicles, but I got experiences that tell me it's time to look elsewhere. Growing up we had a Ford LTD that was the bane of my father's existence. Right now my wife has a Chevy Malibu that is the bane of my existence. My father-in-law has a '82 Toyota pickup with about almost 300,000 miles on it and he just got the engine rebuilt and back on the road for who knows how much longer. I have a '95 Jeep with about 150,000 and the same mechanic tells me it's not even worth rebuilding an american engine. The engine blocks just aren't dense enough to expect more than 200,000 out of them. When it comes to MY time and MY money, why do I want to get less quality, support unions, and prop up a corporation that has contributed to our ailing economy just to say that I'm "patriotic." It's lunacy. Patriotism is those workers going in for a fair wage, building a decent product, and the Big3 not laying off workers that aren't costing them anything (dealerships). When they start acting patriotic themselves, patriotism will start to have more weight the next time I'm out looking for a new vehicle. Again, I hear what you saying about the rebound of American vehichles, but 25-30 years of bad blood is a lot to swallow.

[BBA1994]

I am a toyota and honda fan when it comes to cars and an american made trucks. As for the spew that nut is spouting, whether you agree with him or not, keep in mind that not only is he a car washer at a dealer ship, but its a honda dealership.

[Mich97c]

I am a toyota and honda fan when it comes to cars and an american made trucks. As for the spew that nut is spouting, whether you agree with him or not, keep in mind that not only is he a car washer at a dealer ship, but its a honda dealership.

I think he must be a repair guy - kinda like the Maytag repair man. Honda's never break down - even when you want them too. That's why he's on here so much.

[1OSUNUT]

If you gave every person on this site money to buy a car - what do you think they would buy if given the choice ? Import or Domestic

It would be a landslide for the Import cars - unless you work for one of the Big 3.

I like the Vette, CTS, Camaro, Mustang - and thats about it.

The quality is still much better on the import side. Honda, Toyota, Mazda and Nissan all make better cars then the Americans - and we did not even mention the Germans and Swiss.

All you have to do is look at the used car adds. The import cars hold their value and sell - even when they have high mileage. While the American cars are hot potatoes that nobody wants. I have a beater car that I drive in bad weather and winters. It's a 1997 Civic hatchback with 265,000 miles on it and it runs outstanding. The air is cold and I would have no problem checking the oil and driving it across the country. I could still get $2500 for it if I was to sell it. It takes many years to build a reputation but not very long to destroy it. America has a long way to go to catch up and win the trust of the buyers. According to Consumer Reports there is not much domestic worth a damn - I tend to agree. It's a shame.

[amazinblue]

The quality is still much better on the import side. Honda, Toyota, Mazda and Nissan all make better cars then the Americans - and we did not even mention the Germans and Swiss..

What cars do the Swiss make?

[Wolvrin704]

If you gave every person on this site money to buy a car - what do you think they would buy if given the choice ? Import or Domestic

It would be a landslide for the Import cars - unless you work for one of the Big 3.

I like the Vette, CTS, Camaro, Mustang - and thats about it.

The quality is still much better on the import side. Honda, Toyota, Mazda and Nissan all make better cars then the Americans - and we did not even mention the Germans and Swiss.

All you have to do is look at the used car adds. The import cars hold their value and sell - even when they have high mileage. While the American cars are hot potatoes that nobody wants. I have a beater car that I drive in bad weather and winters. It's a 1997 Civic hatchback with 265,000 miles on it and it runs outstanding. The air is cold and I would have no problem checking the oil and driving it across the country. I could still get $2500 for it if I was to sell it. It takes many years to build a reputation but not very long to destroy it. America has a long way to go to catch up and win the trust of the buyers. According to Consumer Reports there is not much domestic worth a damn - I tend to agree. It's a shame.

You show your ineptitude even when talking about serious subjects.

First of all Ford's quality is just about on par with the Japanese now. The latest JD Powers rating have Ford, Cadillac and Chevy on the top 10.

1. Lexus
2. Porsche
3. Cadillac
4. Hyundai
5. Honda
6. Mercedes-Benz
7. Toyota
8. Ford
9. Chevrolet
10. Suzuki

I see ALLOT of import brands missing from the top 10 and I see 3 domestics. In fact the worst 2 rated vehicle brands are MINI and Land Rover.

I work for the Japanese but there are MANY domestic cars I would buy. In fact 2 of the 3 cars sitting in my driveway are domestic. There are many imports I would buy as well but to dismiss a car just because its a domestic is ludicrous.

I'm with amazinblue, since when have the Swiss started making cars?