Remember: OSU and PSU also went through this.

[goblue]

I guess it's finally our turn to go through some horrible years. Ohio State went through some rough years:

Earle Bruce 1987: 6-4-1
Cooper 1988: 4-6-1
Cooper 1989: 8-4
Cooper 1990: 7-4-1
Cooper 1991: 8-4

Cooper 1999: 6-6
Cooper 2000: 8-4
Tressel 2001: 7-5

As you can see Ohio State wasn't always perfect. I'm sure if they had those years in today's internet era, they wouldn't be coming on Michigan's forum and tooting their horns.

Penn State also went through this not too long ago.
Paterno 2000: 5-7
Paterno 2001: 5-6
Paterno 2002: 9-4
Paterno 2003: 3-9
Paterno 2004: 4-7

As you can see, the almighty JoePa went through a horrible patch not too long ago. And he was owned by Michigan till Carr retired. How he didn't get fired during this rough patch I'll never know. PSU fans must have really loved him to let him stay.

But OSU and PSU eventually rebounded and are now consistent winners.

The question is how long do you think Michigan's slump will last?

[nc wolverine]

I guess it's finally our turn to go through some horrible years. Ohio State went through some rough years:

Earle Bruce 1987: 6-4-1
Cooper 1988: 4-6-1
Cooper 1989: 8-4
Cooper 1990: 7-4-1
Cooper 1991: 8-4

Cooper 1999: 6-6
Cooper 2000: 8-4
Tressel 2001: 7-5

As you can see Ohio State wasn't always perfect. I'm sure if they had those years in today's internet era, they wouldn't be coming on Michigan's forum and tooting their horns.

Penn State also went through this not too long ago.
Paterno 2000: 5-7
Paterno 2001: 5-6
Paterno 2002: 9-4
Paterno 2003: 3-9
Paterno 2004: 4-7

As you can see, the almighty JoePa went through a horrible patch not too long ago. And he was owned by Michigan till Carr retired. How he didn't get fired during this rough patch I'll never know. PSU fans must have really loved him to let him stay.

But OSU and PSU eventually rebounded and are now consistent winners.

The question is how long do you think Michigan's slump will last?

im guessing the line about joe pa is sarcastic... becuase there is no way you can compare him to RR

[goblue]

im guessing the line about joe pa is sarcastic... becuase there is no way you can compare him to RR

I wasn't necessarily comparing RR to JoePa. It was more about comparing programs as a whole. JoePa had an incredible record before that slump. So did RR, just not at Michigan. But PSU's slump did last for 4 or 5 years, enough to put even the greatest coaches on the hot seat.

I think Michigan should be darn proud of themselves. It is incredible that it took this long to finally have our slump. We should be grateful for our past record. I'm just hoping that this is just a short term slump that doesn't last a decade.

[ButlerWolverine]

7-5 is a hell of alot different than 5-7 or 3-9. Show me where OSU had a losing season or a 3 win season.

PSU I could care less about. I respect Joe Paterno because frankly, after 40+ years of coaching at one school, he has earned it.

[RADRACING]

Actually after looking at that there is hope after all, in a few years.

[goblue]

7-5 is a hell of alot different than 5-7 or 3-9. Show me where OSU had a losing season or a 3 win season.

PSU I could care less about. I respect Joe Paterno because frankly, after 40+ years of coaching at one school, he has earned it.

Their records weren't quite as bad as 3-9 and 5-7, except in 1988 when they went 4-6-1. Still though it was a slump where it created lots of frustration for their fans.

What we got to find out is how do we get out of this slump.
Do we change coaches? Will a change at AD do it? Do we go back to the traditional Michigan way of playing? Do we hire another coach who uses the spread if we fire RR? Do we wait it out for 4 or 5 years, strongly believing that RR will bring us to greatness once again?

[Silver Bullet]

OSU had a "Down" year at 7-5 which was also Tressel's first year. The similarities to Um and to RR end when you factor in they won the MNC the next year.

[amazinblue]

OSU had a "Down" year at 7-5 which was also Tressel's first year. The similarities to Um and to RR end when you factor in they won the MNC the next year.

SB,

Oh, so this 4-6-1 record in 1988 never happened? I must be getting some bad information. What was OSU's record in 1988?

[Mike Furley]

I guess it's finally our turn to go through some horrible years. Ohio State went through some rough years:

Earle Bruce 1987: 6-4-1
Cooper 1988: 4-6-1
Cooper 1989: 8-4
Cooper 1990: 7-4-1
Cooper 1991: 8-4

Cooper 1999: 6-6
Cooper 2000: 8-4
Tressel 2001: 7-5



Earle Bruce was fired for that 6-4-1 record and had John Cooper went 5-7 in his second season instead of going 8-4, he would have been canned as well.

Cooper went 6-6 and was fired the following season going 8-4. Had he not had us in the top 5 just a couple seasons prior, he would have been fired for that 6-6 season too.

Do you see a pattern? Substandard performance is not tolerated. Cooper barely kept his job those first couple seasons too - and that was with a winning record.

Rich Rodriguez has gone 3-9 and now will follow that up with 5-7. It's one thing for the administrators to preach patience...they don't want to admit their mistake. For fans though, I am astounded there's anybody on here willfully carrying the water for those same administrators.

[Wolvrin704]

Michigan has been down this road before with Coach Kipke and it was an extreme up and down.

1929: 5-3-1, 8th place B10
1930: 8-0-1, 1st place B10
1931: 8-1-1, 1st place B10
1932: 8-0, 1st place B10, NC
1933: 7-0-1, 1st place B10, NC
1934: 1-7, 10th place B10
1935: 4-4, 5th place B10
1936: 1-7, 8th place B10
1937: 4-4, 4th place B10

This was the most extreme example in UM history but is by far not the only one. Bump Elliot for instance in his first 5 seasons had 4 losing seasons and 1 season of 6 wins before his team won 9 games and the B10. Now I don't believe RR will be given that much time (with losing records) but its historical for UM to give coaches time to do their job before considering firing them.

[amazinblue]

Earle Bruce was fired for that 6-4-1 record and had John Cooper went 5-7 in his second season instead of going 8-4, he would have been canned as well.

Cooper went 6-6 and was fired the following season going 8-4. Had he not had us in the top 5 just a couple seasons prior, he would have been fired for that 6-6 season too.

Do you see a pattern? Substandard performance is not tolerated. Cooper barely kept his job those first couple seasons too - and that was with a winning record.

Rich Rodriguez has gone 3-9 and now will follow that up with 5-7. It's one thing for the administrators to preach patience...they don't want to admit their mistake. For fans though, I am astounded there's anybody on here willfully carrying the water for those same administrators.

How many times did Cooper play against Michigan with a higher ranked team and wind up losing? I'm just curious...

[ButlerWolverine]

I would be quite happy with 5-7 is this was an Akron, Purdue, or Washington team we were talking about. But it's not....3-9 is an abomination....and so is 5-7 at Michigan. Our standards should not be lowered to account for "he doesn't have his type of players in yet." Then change your f*$king scheme until you have them. I'd rather have 3 or 4 8-4 seasons than to take all of our lumps at once. You can't tell me he couldn't have worked this in over 4 years. And don't use the tired old excuses of training them from the start. That's lame, and a weak excuse at that. There are many programs that have changed slowly over time. It's not like I'm going to wake up tomorrow and say "you know what..instead of being a couch potato, I think I'm going to run 24 miles today". Bad idea.

Anyhow, I digress. Year 3. 9 wins and #1 or 2 in the Big Ten. If he can't pull that off, then I will lead the fire RR bandwagon. (which will still be painted Maize and Blue)

[editor]

The media firestorms are different now than even in the Cooper era. 24-7 cable, a dozen ESPN channels, not to mention the assorted other sports news outlets, internet chat rooms, forums, etc. Everything is on a shorter fuse now as far as fans and media are concerned. But I don't think that administration has adjusted -- or necessarily should adjust -- to that new timetable

[Sten Carlson]

I guess it's finally our turn to go through some horrible years. Ohio State went through some rough years:

Earle Bruce 1987: 6-4-1
Cooper 1988: 4-6-1
Cooper 1989: 8-4
Cooper 1990: 7-4-1
Cooper 1991: 8-4

Cooper 1999: 6-6
Cooper 2000: 8-4
Tressel 2001: 7-5

As you can see Ohio State wasn't always perfect. I'm sure if they had those years in today's internet era, they wouldn't be coming on Michigan's forum and tooting their horns.

Penn State also went through this not too long ago.
Paterno 2000: 5-7
Paterno 2001: 5-6
Paterno 2002: 9-4
Paterno 2003: 3-9
Paterno 2004: 4-7

As you can see, the almighty JoePa went through a horrible patch not too long ago. And he was owned by Michigan till Carr retired. How he didn't get fired during this rough patch I'll never know. PSU fans must have really loved him to let him stay.

But OSU and PSU eventually rebounded and are now consistent winners.

The question is how long do you think Michigan's slump will last?

Great post goblue!

I've been trying to give some historical perspective on this situation at hand for a while now, and showing our rivals' trials and tribulations of that past should really be an eye opener.

What I find most interesting, actually, is the fact that OSU guys and RR nay-sayer instantly try to spin the information, or shoot down the comparisons being made.

If you were to go back through the history of all the top 10 teams in the country currently, you'd see similar patterns -- that is just the way college football works.

I remember that stretch of poor seasons that PSU had, and I was shocked that a guy who had been at the helm as long as he had didn't step down. I knew Paterno wouldn NEVER be fired, but I thought he might just be done coaching. I also remember that he was quoted as saying that PSU just wasn't getting the players that they used to get before they came into the Big 10. I don't remember WHY they weren't, but it should be obvious to everyone that no matter how great your coach is (and JoPa is one of the all-time greats) you cannot put quality teams on the field without quality players.

It happens to everyone, Michigan is just one of the last to go through it. If we're anything like the other (which I find no reason to suspect that we're not) we'll have a few more years of lackluster teams, followed my a meteoric rise to national prominence.

Let's all try to have some mature perspective on the situation!

Go Blue, we'll be back!

[Silver Bullet]

SB,

Oh, so this 4-6-1 record in 1988 never happened? I must be getting some bad information. What was OSU's record in 1988?

Yeah it happened but who cares? This was Bruce's last year. Is RR at the end of his tenure? Then why is that relevant? I think it is hard to look at overall record and think that is going to tell you anything. I think you have to look at the state of the program and that is what Um should be doing. What is RR doing that gives you definitive proof that Um is going to right the ship? Does any of your post show you that?

[Don Unverferth]

I would be quite happy with 5-7 is this was an Akron, Purdue, or Washington team we were talking about. But it's not....3-9 is an abomination....and so is 5-7 at Michigan. Our standards should not be lowered to account for "he doesn't have his type of players in yet." Then change your f*$king scheme until you have them. I'd rather have 3 or 4 8-4 seasons than to take all of our lumps at once. You can't tell me he couldn't have worked this in over 4 years. And don't use the tired old excuses of training them from the start. That's lame, and a weak excuse at that. There are many programs that have changed slowly over time. It's not like I'm going to wake up tomorrow and say "you know what..instead of being a couch potato, I think I'm going to run 24 miles today". Bad idea.

Anyhow, I digress. Year 3. 9 wins and #1 or 2 in the Big Ten. If he can't pull that off, then I will lead the fire RR bandwagon. (which will still be painted Maize and Blue)

Problem is, the hole RRod has to dig himself out of on defense is so big, it's gonna take multiple solid classes to do that. So far, with a couple exceptions, he's relying on a lot of sleeper pick ups. That's risky business in a power conference like the Big Ten.

If you do drop these last two (particularly in embarrassing fashion), I don't see how he gets much rope past next year. Even with that, he's gonna have an uphill battle next fall. He loses an awful lot of impact players (Graham, Minor, C. Brown, possibly D. Warren). I think he sticks with Tate vs. Gardner simply for the fact that who wants to start all over at QB for a 3rd year in a row? But again, if Tate continues his late season swoon into next year (I really think he's gonna get rocked in these last two games), I wouldn't be surprised to see a quick switch to gardner out of pure desperation.

All the apologists have backed off their "Rodriguez gets results in year two" claims and are now saying he needs 4 to 5 years.

[editor]

The media firestorms are different now than even in the Cooper era. 24-7 cable, a dozen ESPN channels, not to mention the assorted other sports news outlets, internet chat rooms, forums, etc. Everything is on a shorter fuse now as far as fans and media are concerned. But I don't think that administration has adjusted -- or necessarily should adjust -- to that new timetable

[cartyboi]

I think 2 year rebounds are possible in the Big East and other small conferences. But you can't grab some freshman and go 9-4 in the Big Ten when you have nobody else who is worth a shit. The rebound is coming. and RR isn't going to forget the first two years of his tenure at Michigan. He will be sure to embarrass those who embarrassed him.

[bighousemike84]

Whats amazing to me is how much wins and losses effect public opinion! Butler just said it above
I'd rather have 3 or 4 8-4 seasons than to take all of our lumps at once That doesnt really make sense but if you look at it in terms of just wins and losses I guess it does. I am not going to base my opinion of this team on the overall record. Sure I would much rather Michigan is 8-4 instead of 6-6 or 5-7 but as long as Michigan is making progress and as long as they play tough football and dont give up then that 5-7 number doesnt mean near as much to me as it does to others.

[Sten Carlson]

3-9 is an abomination....and so is 5-7 at Michigan. Our standards should not be lowered to account for "he doesn't have his type of players in yet."

What about 3-9 and 4-7 at PSU just 5-6 short years ago? Is THAT an abomination? What about 6-4-1 and 4-6-1 a decade ago at OSU? Nobody is "lowering their standards" Butler, these thing just happen, even to the best programs.

Texas had a stretch in the 90's in which they went 5-6 in '91, 6-5 in '92, 5-5-1 in '93, and then 4-7 in '97. Mack Brown showed up, and righted the ship.


I'd rather have 3 or 4 8-4 seasons than to take all of our lumps at once.

I think it is very unrealistic to think that RR could have taken the 2008 team and gone 8-4, which, incidentally, was a pretty normal season for Carr in his day.



And don't use the tired old excuses of training them from the start. That's lame, and a weak excuse at that.
There are many programs that have changed slowly over time.

As I have told other nay-sayer in here repeatedly: you cannot simply dismiss and explanation given by RR himself as to why he chose to make the transition whole-scale in 2008 as "lame" or "weak" just because you don't agree with it. Any supporting evidence to bolster your claim that others have done it differently? I am sick and tired of you, et. al., simply dismissing valid and well supported explanations with a mere wave of your hand, as if you're some sort of dictator or king passing an edict. The reason is simple, RR didn't want to have to teach the WHOLE team a new offense in the second year. Personally, I think the wisdom of the decision has shown through in the marked improvement of the offense this season. You can all something lame or weak all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Use your head, not your heart Butler. Michigan is going through a difficult transition, and it is one that EVERY elite team in the nation has already had to endure. A few, like Nebraska and ND haven't made it back, but most, like Texas, USC, OSU, and Oklahoma have. It's a chance that must be taken, but it's not for the faint of heart. Two steps backwards to take three steps forward. Last year was #1, this year is #2, next year, we're going to striding ahead. Just be patient and stop being so overly emotional, please!

Go Blue!

[Wolvrin704]

So many great historical programs have been through the same thing in the past 2 decades that pages could be written on the subject.

Since 1995...

Alabama: 8-3, 10-3, 4-7, 7-5, 10-3, 3-8, 7-5, 10-3, 4-9, 6-6, 10-2, 6-7, 7-6, 12-2

USC: 9-2-1, 6-6, 6-5, 8-5, 7-5, 5-7, 6-6, 11-2, 12-1, 13-0, 12-1, 11-2, 11-2, 12-1

Oklahoma: 5-5-1, 3-8, 4-8, 5-6, 7-5, 13-0, 11-2, 12-2, 12-2, 12-1, 8-4, 11-3, 11-3, 12-2

Texas: 10-2-1, 8-5, 4-7, 9-3, 9-5, 9-3, 11-2, 11-2, 10-3, 11-1, 13-0, 10-3, 10-3, 12-1

These programs all have history that rivals even Michigan. And yet all of them went through the same issues of having bad season within the past 15 years until they found their current coaches who brought them back to glory and I can guarantee none of these coaches came into a situation where the majority of the starters the year before graduated or left and the talent was not as advertised.
Not to mention other programs such as FSU, Tennessee, Nebraska, Washington, Georgia that have had or are having hard times. Plus the aforementioned OSU and PSU that have had theirs as well.

[ButlerWolverine]

Wolverin:

And how many of the coaches that led them through those down years are still employed there? I only ask that partly toungue in cheek. I would like to know. Or perhaps how long they were employed after their down years at said school.

But, there is at least SOME sarcasm in that question...I just can't stop myself from being a dick sometimes. It's a gift.

[Buzz]

Earle Bruce was fired for that 6-4-1 record and had John Cooper went 5-7 in his second season instead of going 8-4, he would have been canned as well.

Cooper went 6-6 and was fired the following season going 8-4. Had he not had us in the top 5 just a couple seasons prior, he would have been fired for that 6-6 season too.

Do you see a pattern? Substandard performance is not tolerated. Cooper barely kept his job those first couple seasons too - and that was with a winning record.

Rich Rodriguez has gone 3-9 and now will follow that up with 5-7. It's one thing for the administrators to preach patience...they don't want to admit their mistake. For fans though, I am astounded there's anybody on here willfully carrying the water for those same administrators.

If Rod was being paid a couple hudred grand, he would be fired after this season. Since he's completely overhauling the program and being paid a couple mil, he'll get a third year. No sense in throwing good money after bad. If there ain't no improvement by next season, Mr. Rod is gonna get a pink slip.

[Buzz]

Great post goblue!

I've been trying to give some historical perspective on this situation at hand for a while now, and showing our rivals' trials and tribulations of that past should really be an eye opener.

What I find most interesting, actually, is the fact that OSU guys and RR nay-sayer instantly try to spin the information, or shoot down the comparisons being made.

If you were to go back through the history of all the top 10 teams in the country currently, you'd see similar patterns -- that is just the way college football works.

I remember that stretch of poor seasons that PSU had, and I was shocked that a guy who had been at the helm as long as he had didn't step down. I knew Paterno wouldn NEVER be fired, but I thought he might just be done coaching. I also remember that he was quoted as saying that PSU just wasn't getting the players that they used to get before they came into the Big 10. I don't remember WHY they weren't, but it should be obvious to everyone that no matter how great your coach is (and JoPa is one of the all-time greats) you cannot put quality teams on the field without quality players.

It happens to everyone, Michigan is just one of the last to go through it. If we're anything like the other (which I find no reason to suspect that we're not) we'll have a few more years of lackluster teams, followed my a meteoric rise to national prominence.

Let's all try to have some mature perspective on the situation!

Go Blue, we'll be back!

In alot of ways this post is very true...Sten. The only thing I'll point out is that in most if not all of the situations where a perennial power team took a bit of a dive, the sitting coach wasn't around to see that meteoric rise back to national prominence...cause he got fired.

Most people on this board have seen how you know, the essenence of Rod's offensive system can work for Michigan. And I said this last season, in order for Rod to take this program and run with it, he's gonna have to tweak his system...by adding some of the old Michigan in with the new, emphasizing defense, and developing a scheme for that defense. What exactly is the goal for Michigan's defense? Don't look like they have one. As far as players go...I don't have a problem with him recruiting three star Athletes, cause you gotta start from somewhere. This is ain't msu, this is Michigan, once they start showing a REAL product on the field, getting top athletes won't be a problem. So far, RichRod hasn't done nearly enough as Michigan's head coach. The Wolverines are going to have out perform teams in order to win games, for now.

[Mike Furley]

So many great historical programs have been through the same thing in the past 2 decades that pages could be written on the subject.

Since 1995...

Alabama: 8-3, 10-3, 4-7, 7-5, 10-3, 3-8, 7-5, 10-3, 4-9, 6-6, 10-2, 6-7, 7-6, 12-2

USC: 9-2-1, 6-6, 6-5, 8-5, 7-5, 5-7, 6-6, 11-2, 12-1, 13-0, 12-1, 11-2, 11-2, 12-1

Oklahoma: 5-5-1, 3-8, 4-8, 5-6, 7-5, 13-0, 11-2, 12-2, 12-2, 12-1, 8-4, 11-3, 11-3, 12-2

Texas: 10-2-1, 8-5, 4-7, 9-3, 9-5, 9-3, 11-2, 11-2, 10-3, 11-1, 13-0, 10-3, 10-3, 12-1

These programs all have history that rivals even Michigan. And yet all of them went through the same issues of having bad season within the past 15 years until they found their current coaches who brought them back to glory and I can guarantee none of these coaches came into a situation where the majority of the starters the year before graduated or left and the talent was not as advertised.
Not to mention other programs such as FSU, Tennessee, Nebraska, Washington, Georgia that have had or are having hard times. Plus the aforementioned OSU and PSU that have had theirs as well.

I think we are arguing apples and oranges. I am not disputing that Michigan is having a tough time right now that is not all that different from any other program. We all have a tough stretch at one point or another.

So yes, you can look at Oklahoma,Texas, USC, Ohio State, Miami, Nebraska, etc. and find similar circumstances. What you'll also find is that these programs then got rid of the stiffs they had coaching them... and as soon as they brought in someone competent they became national powers again.

That is what I am arguing for. I am saying Rich Rodriguez is a stiff and needs to be replaced by somebody competent so Michigan can be a national power again. The sooner the administration realizes this, the sooner this can happen.

My guess is that they already realize this but they don't want to admit their mistake and so they are sitting by with their fingers crossed hoping Rich Rod can pull a rabbit out of his arse and make them look good. As fans, you ought to be bringing pressure on them to can Rodriguez now so you don't delay the inevitable. Why delay competency?

Somebody brought up the example of Kentucky basketball. Tubby Smith wasn't getting it done so they brought in Gillespie. After two years they realized they made a mistake and now they have Caliparri. Michigan football is like Kentucky basketball. You'll always have a stud coach waiting in the wings to take over. The idea that a top flight coach wouldn't want to come to Michigan because Rich Rod only had two years is ludicrous.

[Buzz]

I think we are arguing apples and oranges. I am not disputing that Michigan is having a tough time right now that is not all that different from any other program. We all have a tough stretch at one point or another.

So yes, you can look at Oklahoma,Texas, USC, Ohio State, Miami, Nebraska, etc. and find similar circumstances. What you'll also find is that these programs then got rid of the stiffs they had coaching them... and as soon as they brought in someone competent they became national powers again.

That is what I am arguing for. I am saying Rich Rodriguez is a stiff and needs to be replaced by somebody competent so Michigan can be a national power again. The sooner the administration realizes this, the sooner this can happen.

My guess is that they already realize this but they don't want to admit their mistake and so they are sitting by with their fingers crossed hoping Rich Rod can pull a rabbit out of his arse and make them look good. As fans, you ought to be bringing pressure on them to can Rodriguez now so you don't delay the inevitable. Why delay competency?

Somebody brought up the example of Kentucky basketball. Tubby Smith wasn't getting it done so they brought in Gillespie. After two years they realized they made a mistake and now they have Caliparri. Michigan football is like Kentucky basketball. You'll always have a stud coach waiting in the wings to take over. The idea that a top flight coach wouldn't want to come to Michigan because Rich Rod only had two years is ludicrous.

You're a bucknut troll, but you do know what you're talking about. Basketball and football are not managed in the same fashion, football is more complexed. I say Michigan starts to identify an exit strategy, just in case Rod doesn't win next season. They put a five year plan together...at the beginning of last year, you have to give that plan a chance to succeed. Cause it will take another ton of money, and a better search. Should Michigan change coaches, it won't be to another Read-Option Spread coach who can't adapt.

[The Michigan Man]

I guess it's finally our turn to go through some horrible years. Ohio State went through some rough years:

Earle Bruce 1987: 6-4-1
Cooper 1988: 4-6-1
Cooper 1989: 8-4
Cooper 1990: 7-4-1
Cooper 1991: 8-4

Cooper 1999: 6-6
Cooper 2000: 8-4
Tressel 2001: 7-5

As you can see Ohio State wasn't always perfect. I'm sure if they had those years in today's internet era, they wouldn't be coming on Michigan's forum and tooting their horns.

Penn State also went through this not too long ago.
Paterno 2000: 5-7
Paterno 2001: 5-6
Paterno 2002: 9-4
Paterno 2003: 3-9
Paterno 2004: 4-7

As you can see, the almighty JoePa went through a horrible patch not too long ago. And he was owned by Michigan till Carr retired. How he didn't get fired during this rough patch I'll never know. PSU fans must have really loved him to let him stay.

But OSU and PSU eventually rebounded and are now consistent winners.

The question is how long do you think Michigan's slump will last?

There are no real parallels between what Michigan is going through and other program rebuilds: this is perhaps the most drastic rebuild in college football history. I defy anyone to find such a drastic change of philosophy in a new regime - that coupled with the lack of appropriate talent inherited, and the rebuild is all the more painful. That is why changing directions again with potentially firing RR would be a complete disaster, and set the program back 2-3 more years, minimum.

Paterno maintained the same high level of recruiting and style of offense. He brought in talented coordinators, and turned the program around.

Tressel inherited a team that was loaded with NFL talent. A little tweaking here and there was all that was necessary. In fact, the 2002 NC* was won with Cooper's boys along with a sassy young felon RB that he recruited; Tressel has been unable to reach the same level of success with his own recruits.

[Buzz]

There are no real parallels between what Michigan is going through and other program rebuilds: this is perhaps the most drastic rebuild in college football history. I defy anyone to find such a drastic change of philosophy in a new regime - that coupled with the lack of appropriate talent inherited, and the rebuild is all the more painful. That is why changing directions again with potentially firing RR would be a complete disaster, and set the program back 2-3 more years, minimum.

Paterno maintained the same high level of recruiting and style of offense. He brought in talented coordinators, and turned the program around.

Tressel inherited a team that was loaded with NFL talent. A little tweaking here and there was all that was necessary. In fact, the 2002 NC* was won with Cooper's boys along with a sassy young felon RB that he recruited; Tressel has been unable to reach the same level of success with his own recruits.

I totally agree that Michigan's change was drastic. Wasn't unprecedented at all though. The Sooners changed from their old school style in the '90s, Nebraska, and Notre Dame changed their philosophies too. GT made a change to the triple option with success just last year.

[shirc]

im guessing the line about joe pa is sarcastic... becuase there is no way you can compare him to RR

He was comparing the trends genius. Not the coaches.

[shirc]

There are no real parallels between what Michigan is going through and other program rebuilds: this is perhaps the most drastic rebuild in college football history. I defy anyone to find such a drastic change of philosophy in a new regime - that coupled with the lack of appropriate talent inherited, and the rebuild is all the more painful. That is why changing directions again with potentially firing RR would be a complete disaster, and set the program back 2-3 more years, minimum.

Paterno maintained the same high level of recruiting and style of offense. He brought in talented coordinators, and turned the program around.

Tressel inherited a team that was loaded with NFL talent. A little tweaking here and there was all that was necessary. In fact, the 2002 NC* was won with Cooper's boys along with a sassy young felon RB that he recruited; Tressel has been unable to reach the same level of success with his own recruits.

Always the drama queen, eh Michigirl?

Don't forget Lloyd recruited that felon. In fact almost every team that wants to be loaded with "NFL talent" recruited him.
But you're wrong (as usual) about one thing. Tressel has reached the national title game two more times. No he hasn't won it so I'm wondering (waiting with baited breath actually) is Tressel a phenomenal coach who has reached the game with lesser talent than Coopers boys?

[ButlerWolverine]

And we all see how well Nebraska and Notre Dame are doing these days....

[The Michigan Man]

Always the drama queen, eh Michigirl?

Don't forget Lloyd recruited that felon. In fact almost every team that wants to be loaded with "NFL talent" recruited him.
But you're wrong (as usual) about one thing. Tressel has reached the national title game two more times. No he hasn't won it so I'm wondering (waiting with baited breath actually) is Tressel a phenomenal coach who has reached the game with lesser talent than Coopers boys?

Carr recruited him pre-felon - under his guidance, he wouldn't have ended up rotting in jail. Tressel stood around with his hands in his pockets as he got more and more out of control, then cut him loose when he realized he could no longer use him to win games.

Tressel has had tremendous talent, top 5 or 10 every year. No one can explain why he can't win big games with them - getting bombed out of NC games isn't exactly the goal, is it?

[rickyleach]

Tressels goal is to have the best punter and field goal kicker, someone in c/bus asked tressy on his talk show , does the team who has the most punts win the game or the team that has the most points , tressy got a little bit mad ,but he still answerd the qeustion , everyone in c/bus is happy for now ,but wait until tressy gets beat for the 6th bowl game in a row..

[NorCal Buckeye]

Carr recruited him pre-felon - under his guidance, he wouldn't have ended up rotting in jail. Tressel stood around with his hands in his pockets as he got more and more out of control, then cut him loose when he realized he could no longer use him to win games.

Tressel has had tremendous talent, top 5 or 10 every year. No one can explain why he can't win big games with them - getting bombed out of NC games isn't exactly the goal, is it?

Yeah, right...like it's the head coach's job to babysit each and every nitwit that can't follow the rules and act like he can make the right choices between right and wrong. Clarett knew better, he made the wrong choices. He admits his mistake and is trying to help others avoid being dumbasses too. Only a diehard Buckeye basher or fool could try to make this the coach's fault. Rather than bashing Tressel you ought to be praying that your head coach doesn't end up with the same profile as Clarett...he knew what the rules were, and chose to break them.

As for NCs, that is a good problem to have. Who else has lost NCs...Stoops, Carroll, Bowden, i.e. the best coaches of all time. Pretty good company. Don't hold your breath waiting for your man to get there, because he isn't.

[goblue]

Earle Bruce was fired for that 6-4-1 record and had John Cooper went 5-7 in his second season instead of going 8-4, he would have been canned as well.

Cooper went 6-6 and was fired the following season going 8-4. Had he not had us in the top 5 just a couple seasons prior, he would have been fired for that 6-6 season too.

Do you see a pattern? Substandard performance is not tolerated. Cooper barely kept his job those first couple seasons too - and that was with a winning record.

Rich Rodriguez has gone 3-9 and now will follow that up with 5-7. It's one thing for the administrators to preach patience...they don't want to admit their mistake. For fans though, I am astounded there's anybody on here willfully carrying the water for those same administrators.

It is a slow process with RR Mike. But RR does have a track record of gradually going upward.

RR at West Virginia:
2001 - 3-8 not rated
2002 - 9-4 #25
2003 - 8-5 nr
2004 - 8-4 nr
2005 - 11-1 #5
2006 - 11-2 #10
2007 - 11-2 #6

As you can see, RR was ranked in the top 10 three years in a row. He had 4 and 5 loss seasons three years in a row after that first year. But once he had his 3 years of recruiting and got his guys, he made a big turnaround. I'm expecting some more progress next year. In two years I'm expecting the big turnaround.