Bickering About Degrees

[Blue In Ohio]

Sick that a coach would force a player to go somewhere other than Michigan and the value of a Michigan degree. If they are injured at OSU they could end up running a cash register or look like Boobie from FNL. If they get injured at Michigan and stay to finish the degree they will still have a good chance at a good life earning good money because of that degree. I would think for the more intellegent football players Michigan over OSU would be an easy sell. I guess the ones like Pryor who are too dumb to comprehend these things end up at the OSU football factory. To sum it up I would be looking to recruit the smarter players who could comprehend the value of a UM degree over a virtually worthless in this economy OSU degree. If Ginn Sr. cared so much maybe he would realize these things then again based on what I have heard from him he is dumb as the players that go to OSU and has nothing more than a 5th or 6th grade education.

[1OSUNUT]

Blue in Ohio -

Take off your maize and blue glasses. Unless you specialize in a field that Michigan is known for - you can get a great education just about anywhere. A degree from Ohio State is just as good as one from Michigan in just about everything. In fact I'm sure that there are some areas where Ohio State may even be better then that of Michigan. So get off you high horse because its that very arrogance that has landed Michigan where they are. Do you actually think players are at Michigan because of the education ? Very few are. What degree is Warren going to get ? He is getting a NFL degree - just like the one many Buckeyes get.

If it was all about education Northwestern and schools like them would dominate college football. So keep on thinking Michigan is the place to be as you struggle to win conference games.

[Rockie]

Sick that a coach would force a player to go somewhere other than Michigan and the value of a Michigan degree. If they are injured at OSU they could end up running a cash register or look like Boobie from FNL. If they get injured at Michigan and stay to finish the degree they will still have a good chance at a good life earning good money because of that degree. I would think for the more intellegent football players Michigan over OSU would be an easy sell. I guess the ones like Pryor who are too dumb to comprehend these things end up at the OSU football factory. To sum it up I would be looking to recruit the smarter players who could comprehend the value of a UM degree over a virtually worthless in this economy OSU degree. If Ginn Sr. cared so much maybe he would realize these things then again based on what I have heard from him he is dumb as the players that go to OSU and has nothing more than a 5th or 6th grade education.
OSU has probably one of the best Veterinary and agriculter programs in the country (something Michigan doesn't have), they also have a really good Nursing Program and Dentist program too. I know quite of few people that have graduated from OSU and have engineering degrees that are doing quite well. Look, I'm a Michigan fan, like 90% of the posters on this board, but a degree from OSU or Rhodes State Community College in Lima, Ohio, Washenaw Community College in Ann Arbor, or a degree from Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan or Michigan, means something. Some mean more, but they all still market you to a good job.

[The Michigan Man]

A degree from Ohio State is just as good as one from Michigan in just about everything.

If it was all about education Northwestern and schools like them would dominate college football. So keep on thinking Michigan is the place to be as you struggle to win conference games.

Now you are being delusional. Check the US News Top 100 colleges, and tUOS can crane its neck to look up at Michigan academically. If you think the degrees are equivalent, you are being a homer, and not logical.

Michigan is one of a handful of schools like Stanford, NW, ND, etc., that can have high academic standards AND field good athletic teams. That is why Michigan's standing as the all time winningest program in college football is so amazing.

Are you aware that tUOS will not reject any applicants who apply with a GED or HS diploma? This lack of standards is not indicative of a world class learning institution.

[NCBLUE]

Good point MM.

oSU is not in Michigan's league when it comes to academics and you can be fooled into thinking otherwise. Saying that I do strongly think a degree from any Big Ten school is much better than the average university. In fact all Big Ten schools are considered tier 1.

Nut - it is not arogance just stating the obvious. oSU acedemics are not bad but they are not on par with Michigan's. The battle on the football field may swing back and forth and currently be in your favor but the academic battle has never swung back and forth...

[1OSUNUT]

How many schools are ranked even higher then Michigan ? I guess the Michigan degree is a joke to those elite students just as well. To say the OSU degree means nothing and that a kid should go to Michigan for that reason - is arrogant. There are some areas that Michigan does not even teach (as stated above) and some that they are known world wide for. There are schools all over the country (OSU included) that excell in a specific area - that are better then Michigan.

This just in guys - Michigan is not the best in everything.

[TheHoff]

Take off your maize and blue glasses. Unless you specialize in a field that Michigan is known for - you can get a great education just about anywhere. A degree from Ohio State is just as good as one from Michigan in just about everything.

According to USNEW michigan is #19 in the world. OSU is down at #129. So you're telling me that a degree from Michigan is the same from OSU?

Now you're right OSU excels in some areas better than Michigan academically, but if you give two kids, same degree from both schools with the same GPA, the Michigan degree will mean more. I've heard it myself from employers.

[NorCal Buckeye]

According to USNEW michigan is #19 in the world. OSU is down at #129. So you're telling me that a degree from Michigan is the same from OSU?

Now you're right OSU excels in some areas better than Michigan academically, but if you give two kids, same degree from both schools with the same GPA, the Michigan degree will mean more. I've heard it myself from employers.

Wouldn't it really depend on which CFB program the employer was a fan of?

Some employers would only be willing the give the Michigan grad a job sweeping the floors. I've heard it myself from employers too.

Of course, they were all OSU alumni!:D

[cartyboi]

Does having a college degree mean you have a shot at landing a job? Sure. However, when jockying for position in a competitive job market, corporations look at the quality of the degree also and will be more interested in someone who has a degree from and Ivy League school than let's say... Ohio State. :)

[1OSUNUT]

According to USNEW michigan is #19 in the world. OSU is down at #129. So you're telling me that a degree from Michigan is the same from OSU?

Now you're right OSU excels in some areas better than Michigan academically, but if you give two kids, same degree from both schools with the same GPA, the Michigan degree will mean more. I've heard it myself from employers.

Are they ranked 19 in everything - or is the areas that they specialize in very good ? I'm sure there are areas that Michigan is toward the top world wide - but not everything. I'm sure Ohio State is not ranked #129 in everything either. I know some of the cancer research going on is some of the best nationally. Nobody ever said Michigan is not a good school - but don't make it sound like a degree from somewhere else (Ohio State) is chop liver. I'm sure Cissko went to Michigan because of their high standards in education - same with Warren. I don't see him staying to get that great Michigan education - he is leaving for the NFL $$$$$.

Sometimes the arrogance amazes me. You guys still sprout off about how great you are - even after everybody has knocked you off your high horse. Both schools have alumni that have done great things both in the classroom and on the field of play. I'm sure there are schools that laugh at Michigan - does that make Michigan bad. A degree is only a piece of paper anyway. When you hire a person its more about the person who got the education then it is the education itself. There is no free pass or sure thing because you have a Michigan degree and the other person does not.

[The Michigan Man]

How many schools are ranked even higher then Michigan ? I guess the Michigan degree is a joke to those elite students just as well. To say the OSU degree means nothing and that a kid should go to Michigan for that reason - is arrogant. There are some areas that Michigan does not even teach (as stated above) and some that they are known world wide for. There are schools all over the country (OSU included) that excell in a specific area - that are better then Michigan.

This just in guys - Michigan is not the best in everything.

The issue wasn't whether Michigan was the "best in everything" or if many schools were ranked higher than Michigan. No one made those claims.

Your contention was that a tUOS degree was just as good as one from Michigan. With very few exceptions, a tUOS degree absolutely does not compare. I'm sure that a tUOS degree may open more doors for a student in the state of Ohio, but throughout the rest of the country and the world, the Michigan degree is much more prestigious and highly respected. That isn't even arguable, every objective rating systems draws the same conclusion.

That being said, of course getting a degree from tUOS or any other college is a very positive thing and should be celebrated. It is hard work and the student should be proud. However, don't get carried away - degrees aren't measured by the strength of the football program, so let's not confuse the two.


Wouldn't it really depend on which CFB program the employer was a fan of?

Some employers would only be willing the give the Michigan grad a job sweeping the floors. I've heard it myself from employers too.

Of course, they were all OSU alumni!:D


WHat you are describing is a purely emotional reaction. If you run a business and select personnel based upon subjective emotional criteria (I hate Michigan) over objective performance criteria (a Michigan degree is more rigorous and therefore the candidate is probably going to be more productive), you probabably won't be in the business world very long.

[rickyleach]

Blue in Ohio -

Take off your maize and blue glasses. Unless you specialize in a field that Michigan is known for - you can get a great education just about anywhere. A degree from Ohio State is just as good as one from Michigan in just about everything. In fact I'm sure that there are some areas where Ohio State may even be better then that of Michigan. So get off you high horse because its that very arrogance that has landed Michigan where they are. Do you actually think players are at Michigan because of the education ? Very few are. What degree is Warren going to get ? He is getting a NFL degree - just like the one many Buckeyes get.

If it was all about education Northwestern and schools like them would dominate college football. So keep on thinking Michigan is the place to be as you struggle to win conference games.

nut with no disrespect to you or ohio state university because it is a very good school ,but the university of michigan is rated as one of the top 25 schools in the world not the country , in the united states i think we are in the top 18, but none the less most of our college football guys dont give a rats asss but for those that do ,you really cant beat michigan in education.

[1OSUNUT]

For the classes MOST of the players across the country are taking - you can get the same education at a community college. Like I said in a previous post - for every Craig Krenzel there are hundreds of Andy Katzenmoyers. The kids on the football team could care less about the school - all they care about is playing time and a chance to get to the NFL, period.

[TheHoff]

Are they ranked 19 in everything - or is the areas that they specialize in very good ? I'm sure there are areas that Michigan is toward the top world wide - but not everything. I'm sure Ohio State is not ranked #129 in everything either. I know some of the cancer research going on is some of the best nationally. Nobody ever said Michigan is not a good school - but don't make it sound like a degree from somewhere else (Ohio State) is chop liver. I'm sure Cissko went to Michigan because of their high standards in education - same with Warren. I don't see him staying to get that great Michigan education - he is leaving for the NFL $$$$$.

Sometimes the arrogance amazes me. You guys still sprout off about how great you are - even after everybody has knocked you off your high horse. Both schools have alumni that have done great things both in the classroom and on the field of play. I'm sure there are schools that laugh at Michigan - does that make Michigan bad. A degree is only a piece of paper anyway. When you hire a person its more about the person who got the education then it is the education itself. There is no free pass or sure thing because you have a Michigan degree and the other person does not.

It was an overall rating. Didn't go into specifics, but I like I said earlier, I'm sure tOSU is better at some things than Michigan and vice versa.

[chriswebber]

Overall college ratings are a joke. Students are in college to learn a skill. You should go where that skill is taught the best. Look at the individual program rankings. An Abet under graduate accredited engineering program is an Abet accredited engineering program. Each school is different. From personal experience, UM engineering is all about competing against your classmates for standings. However, at some schools, Engineering is taught as a group thinking much like real world applications. Both forms of teachings have there merits.

School standings are like politics, whoever can flood the electorate will win. Plus, academic eliteness does not matter until the post graduate level. You would be better off getting a CMU/EMU/WMU undergraduate and a ND/NW/MIT/UM/OSU post graduate degree.

[amazinblue]

... Students are in college to learn a skill. You should go where that skill is taught the best...

CWebb,

It might be a slight difference - and, I do agree with you - today, it seems as though colleges and universities are apprenticeship programs for various careers, little different from what vocational programs offer - though the skill set (or trade) may be a bit different.

What I believe college / universities SHOULD teach is "how to think". To learn to understand an issue or a problem, develop an approach to evaluating various solutions, and then implement the best solution to address the problem.

The challenge today is - many people don't think - certainly, not on their own. And, a majority of universities out there don't teach you this - how to think. They'll teach you how to "do nursing", or "computer programming" - but, you leave after four or more years and can't think on your own.

[chriswebber]

CWebb,

It might be a slight difference - and, I do agree with you - today, it seems as though colleges and universities are apprenticeship programs for various careers, little different from what vocational programs offer - though the skill set (or trade) may be a bit different.

What I believe college / universities SHOULD teach is "how to think". To learn to understand an issue or a problem, develop an approach to evaluating various solutions, and then implement the best solution to address the problem.

The challenge today is - many people don't think - certainly, not on their own. And, a majority of universities out there don't teach you this - how to think. They'll teach you how to "do nursing", or "computer programming" - but, you leave after four or more years and can't think on your own.

It is impossible to teach 'thinking' these days without offending someone or some group that will sue. The age of the thinkers is gone.

[NCBLUE]

I do think an education from Michigan is valued more. However the point that nut makes about football players is valid. If they are looking at college as means to get to teh NFL then it is probably no different.

[The Michigan Man]

Overall college ratings are a joke. Students are in college to learn a skill. You should go where that skill is taught the best. Look at the individual program rankings. An Abet under graduate accredited engineering program is an Abet accredited engineering program. Each school is different. From personal experience, UM engineering is all about competing against your classmates for standings. However, at some schools, Engineering is taught as a group thinking much like real world applications. Both forms of teachings have there merits.

School standings are like politics, whoever can flood the electorate will win. Plus, academic eliteness does not matter until the post graduate level. You would be better off getting a CMU/EMU/WMU undergraduate and a ND/NW/MIT/UM/OSU post graduate degree.

You don't go to a university to learn a job "skill". Refrigerator repair or auto mechanics trade schools teach you job skills, not universities.

Most of what you are taught the first two years as an undergrad is useless (social studies, theater, history) in a "real world" (non-teaching) work environment. You learn critical thinking, research, writing, etc., all useful academic skills, but on your first day of work with your business or engineering degree, you don't just hit the ground running and know your job.

On the job training is where you obtain your career skills - college will prepare you to learn these skills and reduce the learning curve because you are already familiar with the theories and have been trained on how to learn effectively.

The US News rankings do matter. Highly skilled professors go to more prestigious universities because they pay better, offer better research opporunities, and are overall better resume builders. Better professors = better education, so discounting ratings that take into account the academic pedigree of professors is silly. In addition, teacher to student ratios, education resources, library quality, admission GPA, etc. are legitimate criteria for measuring a univesity and the educational experience of the the student.

[chriswebber]

The US News rankings do matter. Highly skilled professors go to more prestigious universities because they pay better, offer better research opporunities, and are overall better resume builders. Better professors = better education, so discounting ratings that take into account the academic pedigree of professors is silly. In addition, teacher to student ratios, education resources, library quality, admission GPA, etc. are legitimate criteria for measuring a univesity and the educational experience of the the student.

Really, than explain to me how people like Abe Lincoln, Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, are so successful? Education is about the individual. You could send someone with an IQ of 80 to UM, but would become a genius? Stop buying the propaganda. You are falling for marketing, not education.

[The Michigan Man]

Really, than explain to me how people like Abe Lincoln, Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, are so successful? Education is about the individual. You could send someone with an IQ of 80 to UM, but would become a genius? Stop buying the propaganda. You are falling for marketing, not education.

Apparently I am confusing you with a very simple point. And having to bring up Abe Lincoln to prove a point is evidence that your debating skills are nonexistant.

The discussion isn't whether a college degree is necessary to succeed. It is whether some degrees are more coveted than others. The answer is absolutely yes. Given that, there are ratings available to assist students and there parents in choosing which programs are appropriate, like US News. The same types of services are available for people who wish to buy automobiles, home computers, and running shoes. Consumers are provided with relevant information to make informed decisions.

Why you find this offensive when it pertains to colleges makes me wonder what sort of personal axe you have to grind with US News - did they give your school a poor rating or something?.

[chriswebber]

Apparently I am confusing you with a very simple point. And having to bring up Abe Lincoln to prove a point is evidence that your debating skills are nonexistant.

The discussion isn't whether a college degree is necessary to succeed. It is whether some degrees are more coveted than others. The answer is absolutely yes. Given that, there are ratings available to assist students and there parents in choosing which programs are appropriate, like US News. The same types of services are available for people who wish to buy automobiles, home computers, and running shoes. Consumers are provided with relevant information to make informed decisions.

Why you find this offensive when it pertains to colleges makes me wonder what sort of personal axe you have to grind with US News - did they give your school a poor rating or something?.

Abe Lincoln was educated in a log cabin by books. Gates quit Harvard. Cuban was my bad, he graduated from Indiana. Anyways, the idea is it doesn't matter where the education comes from a book or a brick building. It's the individual.

I have no issue with US News. Yet, this is one source for information. I would say hiring a Michigan Graduate would require me breaking his 'eliteness' attitude, where as someone from EMU might be easier to employ. My mom thinks I'm pretty cool, but your opinion might vary. :)

[The Michigan Man]

Abe Lincoln was educated in a log cabin by books.

As was most of the country, whose population was largely illiterate or semi-literate farmers. Are you suggesting that the educational environment we currently exist in is similar to that of the 1830s? That's why it is a useless and irrelevant example in this context.


I have no issue with US News. Yet, this is one source for information. I would say hiring a Michigan Graduate would require me breaking his 'eliteness' attitude, where as someone from EMU might be easier to employ. My mom thinks I'm pretty cool, but your opinion might vary.

I am going to take a wild guess and say that you have no concept of what happens in a human resources department in any type of organization. If a manager went before the HR committe and announced "I've decided to hire the EMU grad over the Michigan grad because the latter has an 'eliteness' attitude", the room would erupt with laughter, and they would be laughing at you, not with you.

[shirc]

Sick that a coach would force a player to go somewhere other than Michigan and the value of a Michigan degree. If they are injured at OSU they could end up running a cash register or look like Boobie from FNL. If they get injured at Michigan and stay to finish the degree they will still have a good chance at a good life earning good money because of that degree. I would think for the more intellegent football players Michigan over OSU would be an easy sell. I guess the ones like Pryor who are too dumb to comprehend these things end up at the OSU football factory. To sum it up I would be looking to recruit the smarter players who could comprehend the value of a UM degree over a virtually worthless in this economy OSU degree. If Ginn Sr. cared so much maybe he would realize these things then again based on what I have heard from him he is dumb as the players that go to OSU and has nothing more than a 5th or 6th grade education.

Ahh, Meeeshigan arrogance at it's best! Kinda reminds me of days gone by when UM was GOOD in football. You'd watch a game and they'd be thrashing on someone and the camera would pan the crowd and you'd see a bunch of smug smiles and superior bs where if you watch an OSU game you see people having fun in the stands.
That's why it's sooooo fun watching Meeeeshigan lose and you see all the arrogance deflated. Nothing funnier than watching 109 k plus with dumfounded sad sack faces.

[The Michigan Man]

That's why it's sooooo fun watching Meeeeshigan lose and you see all the arrogance deflated. Nothing funnier than watching 109 k plus with dumfounded sad sack faces.

Sort of like the Horseshoe in the late 80s and 90s when tUOS was only able to win 2 games in 13 years. tUOS reversed its fortunes - so too will Michigan.

[FLex500]

you guys are all crazy...todays job market is all about experience anyway. You have top notch experience and results you'll beat any degree...

[shirc]

Sort of like the Horseshoe in the late 80s and 90s when tUOS was only able to win 2 games in 13 years. tUOS reversed its fortunes - so too will Michigan.


Exactly! Ain't it great that's in the past now? I'm just wondering if Michigan will reverse it fortunes or is going by the wayside like Notre Dame? Well if that's so, you can still brag about academics.

[Sten Carlson]

I'm just wondering if Michigan will reverse it fortunes or is going by the wayside like Notre Dame?

I've been curious about the same thing shirc, to be honest. As you know, I am an RR supporter, and I think the answer to the question is a very resounding, "YES!" I say that with confidence because of the players that RR is bringing in, and his willingness to redshirt talent to allow them to mature physically and mentally so as to contribute significantly in the future.

All the infighting between RR haters and RR supporters has made me dig into Michigan football like I never have before. As I learn more and more about RR's plan, I've really begun to realize that although there are many people that are annoyed and panicking right now, he's addressing the problem: LACK OF DEPTH. Never before in Michigan history has the depth chart been so limited and full of inexperience and in some cases incompetence. I personally believe that these last two seasons have been the pound of flesh that were going to be required as a sacrifice to bring Michigan back to national prominence.

As I have said many times, even if RR isn't the guy, and is replaced in the near future, it is ESSENTIAL that the depth chart be built back up to a championship level. It took a few years of attrition and busts to decimate the chart, and it's going to take a few years to build it back up.

In regards to your comment about ND, I don't think that ANY of the same controlling dynamics are in play in Ann Arbor that are in play in South Bend. ND is trying to be the ND of old -- the national independent that plays all over the country and recruits from everywhere -- but it's just not working any longer. If Kelly were smart, and I think he is, he'd really lobby hard to get ND into the Big 10, and leave the ND past where it belong, in the past. Michigan, by contrast, is trying to reinvent itself in the image of other successful programs, while still keeping its tradition and national prestige. It remains to be seen if it will work, but it worked at Florida, Oklahoma, and Texas, so it's seems to be quite a likely outcome.

I think the biggest problem that Michigan fans are having is that they just won't admit that things in and around the program had slipped to the level that they had, not only with the depth chart, but with the facilities as well. I think that people are going to be very pleased with what they see next season, and if they just remain patient and realize that in time, all the players that RR has redshirted are eventually going to be 5th year seniors, and they will be very tough to beat.

[Blue In Ohio]

Really, than explain to me how people like Abe Lincoln, Bill Gates, Mark Cuban, are so successful? Education is about the individual. You could send someone with an IQ of 80 to UM, but would become a genius? Stop buying the propaganda. You are falling for marketing, not education.

Wow for once I agree with you. I've met many dumb people who had the time and resources to pursue a college degree. College will educate a person but surely will not more intellegent. In my line of work college isn't everything. Either you have the smarts to do the job or don't. In the world of small business there are fewer predetermined limitations on an individual and what they can and cannot do. Performance is the only rule that really matters. In the world of the big company there is an established system and set of rules one has to play by that doesn't always have to do with performance only suggested potential. In other words I wouldn't even have a chance to apply for the same job I do now at a large company because it does require a college degree. From outside looking in the "big company" is at a huge disadvantage on who they can hire and how much they have to pay for someone who will have to be trained to do the job. I think paying someone $40,000 plus a year to just learn a job is insane. No wonder the large companies have to move so many operations overseas. There business model looks like a slow dinosaur.