I don't get it

[Rockie]

As it relates to Cara forms, it has been stated that while at WV RR did not fill our the forms as UVW did not have them as a part of their internal requirements. Now here is my confusion is why would we as an institution have them as a matter of policy and admittedly not properly fill them out and WV not filling them out at all, if it is a violation of MI policies and the NCAA has listed it as a violation then what are they doing with institutions who don't fill them out at all? Because and I could be wrong but I understood RR to say "they didn't do them at WV;" so why isn't WV getting investigated? Can somebody clear up my confusion? Cause all I can think about, in my limited knowledge; is it's because traitorous PINHEADS that worked in the AD conspired against RichRod and thought they could facilitate his ouster by getting Michigan in trouble. Also, why is it that OState can report 375 violations, with one of them giving money to Pryor on his recruiting trip and they get nothing and Michigan is looking at a three to four-year probation? They say Michigan had a lack of Institutional Control becuase of the Ed Martin Scandal, but OState had a probation for their basketball program in the early 2000's and they got nothing. Ok, Ill buy U$C is a private school, but OState is a public school and you can't tell me that of the 375 self reporting violations, that the NCAA couldn't come up with major violations? Because the way I see it is Michigan is guilty of going over two-hours of practice in a week. Making Sure a kid attends class in summer and a rule that wasn't a rule than, but is now. A Grad Assistant Lying to the NCAA (Grads don't get paid, if you don't get paid by someone, your not an official) and they say these are five major violations that gave us a competive edge. I would think giving a qb recruit money on his recruiting trip as a competive edge. I mean all the NCAA had to do is look into why Pryor was driving a Black Corvette, given to him by a booster from OSTATE. I don't care if it was a loner for the prom, it is what it is. Like I said "I don't get it."

[bighousemike84]

As far as I know it is up to the school to decide how they want to track there players activities. WVU might not have CARA forms but possibly track there players a different way. I cant say that I am for sure right but I am fairly certain that is the case.

[1OSUNUT]

Rockie -

Let me try to explain this to you. Every single school in the country in every sport commits minor infractions. It could be as simple as sending an email with a players name on it that is not a high school senior - that is an infraction. When these minor things happen - schools report them to the NCAA. The NCAA cannot patrol every school - so it's the job of each school to in a way police themself. The thought is that by reporting yourself for minor or level 1 infractions - it shows you have control over your coaches and programs. Normally nothing happens when these minor level 1 infractions are commited - so long as a pattern does not develope. The NCAA rule book in almost impossible to follow to a T - and the NCAA knows that. Many of the things you have stated above are not true - or internet rumors. The Buckeyes did not give TP a corvette to attend prom in - nor did a booster. He used a car that belonged to a relative or family friend - kids do that all the time. The Buckeyes had a secondary violation when Tressel took Anthony Gonzalez and Stan White to the Final Four a few years ago on a private plane. Tressel assumed that because both had used up their eligibility and were signed to agents - that they were no longer considered student-athletes. He was wrong and turned himself in - he was just trying to reward them for being Academic All-Americans. I find it pretty funny when I hear all the things you accuse Ohio State of doing to land the talent that they do - it's really comical.

Maybe we just have good coaches, recruiters and facilities. Also winning breeds winning - and kids want to be associated with that. Thad Matta is turning Ohio State basketball into a recruiting machine. Sure he knows some kids will be one and done - but it is all about winning. It seems that ever since Michigan got caught cheating - we have heard every excuse in the book as to why it happened. The people on this site call the charges minor - but that is not the case in the eyes of the NCAA. Michigan WILL suffer some kind of punishment for the 5 violations that have been found. You would think that RR would follow something like that more carefully knowing so many people are watching his every move. Maybe he is used to getting away with stuff like that - who knows. The truth is that the former players ratted him out and the NCAA called him on it - he was unable to back up his claim that they did nothing wrong. RR is at fault and so is the school. Yet many of you want to point the finger at other programs yelling "What about them ?" . Just because Michigan got caught does not mean everybody is doing it. Take your punishment like a man and stop pointing fingers - nobody like a nark.

[Wolvrin704]

Listen NUT, a lot of things are considered to be MAJOR violations these days. At Mgoblue they have talked to a guy who is considered a NCAA violations guru and found similar cases at other schools over the past decade. This is what will probably happen...

1. Reduced practice time during spring training in 2011, possibly 2012 as well.
2. Loss of 1 position coach within the 2011 calendar year.
3. At worst a couple of scholly's lost for a year or 2.
4. Possibly some reduction on allowable coaches allowed off campus for recruiting for a year, maybe 2. I doubt this one happens but its a possibility.
5. Will certainly be kept on probation for a few more years.

Fact is while there were indeed rules broken you cannot tell me that many other schools do not break the same exact or worse rules. We all know OSU is constantly breaking rules, they just decided that reporting on themselves may keep them out of hot water and it has indeed worked. After all they are the highest self reporting school in the nation and its not even close.

Fact is while the rules broken are considered major they are only considered so because of the length of time involved, thats it. There were no recruiting violations, no money paid out, no favors to players (unless you count making sure they're in class and longer than legal practices) and certainly no favors to players families. Those are the type of violations that really rankle fans and the NCAA and really get you in hot water. Fact is UM will impose sanctions and the NCAA will most likely accept them as they will cover all or most of what I have listed.

Fact is how many universities out there are handicapped with their local rag always trying to smell out their dirty laundry and air for one and all to see?

Does it suck that UM has violations? Absolutely. But for us to have violations I would rather they be for trying hard than for cheating to get players. So all the haters go ahead and dump on RR and UM all you want, get your laughs in while you can, we're used to it having put up with it since way back when this site was firecarr or whatever it was. As for me, my opinion is that these adversities will solidify the team and they will come together as one this fall and their record will reflect all the hard work as they make us proud and WIN.

[Blue In Ohio]

The NCAA and the freep are just one big joke. Reggie bush was at USC what 5 years ago and still nothing done yet this happens with Michigan just last year and they are right on top of it? I also get a kick of it being called major violations. I think major could be used for giving the players family free place to stay, providing a free car or cash payments. Practicing too long is major? I just don't get it. The NCAA is the same kind of Sham the BCS is. They have their favorites and the heck with everybody else.

[rickyleach]

The NCAA and the freep are just one big joke. Reggie bush was at USC what 5 years ago and still nothing done yet this happens with Michigan just last year and they are right on top of it? I also get a kick of it being called major violations. I think major could be used for giving the players family free place to stay, providing a free car or cash payments. Practicing too long is major? I just don't get it. The NCAA is the same kind of Sham the BCS is. They have their favorites and the heck with everybody else.

im surprised michigan isnt on the NCAA favorite list , i also believe if you self report ANY infraction the ncaa will not touch you , ohio state leads the nation in this and jim tressel and his staff have it down to a T. the ncaa investigation committee has lost a lot of credibility , and is being looked at like the BCS which we all know is a joke. im not saying thses things because michigan is being looked at , i have felt this way for many years and THE LONGER IT TAKES FOR USC TO GET STOMMPED ON THE MORE I KNOW IM RIGHT .

[bluefan]

Pump the brakes, people. Let's do some reading and research. Every - and I mean every - violation is major to the NCAA. This is not sarcasm. This is in black and white. The NCAA sends out a Notice of Allegation(s) to a university informing them of what major violations they believe ocurred. The university then responds with their own findings and tries to argue them down to secondary. The term "secondary violation" does not exist to the NCAA until after a university is notified and that university has successfully argued the allegations down.

[1OSUNUT]

I think many of you are wrong about USC - I think they are going to get hit harder then many of you think. As an outsider looking in - I'm surprised a school like Michigan would not be on top of stuff like this. You would have to think that the AD would have some kind of system in place before RR even arrived. What did they do when Carr was there ? A violation like this does make it look like the program and the AD is not on the same page - thus the phrase 'loss of control". I think that might be excessive - but it is what it is. You guys can slam Ohio State all you want but they have the largest athletic department in the nation (along with Texas) - and they have procedures in place. The NCAA has come in and looked at Ohio State in the past for several sports and were pleased with not only the organization - but the cooperation as well. That is why the basketball team got off so lightly - the Buckeyes helped the NCAA with their findings and did not hide anything. That was not the case with Michigan. Now some of you might not like this - but RR tried to cover this up. He came out and tearfully defended his program, players and coaches. He said right to the camera that there was no truth to the charges and no violations were commited. That was far from the truth. When he was asked to provide the papers needed to clear his program - he could not. I think not being truthful up front angers the NCAA. He made the NCAA work to find out what was really going on - and they did. Once they found the infractions there was no way that they were not going to do something.

I think if Michigan would of reported this - there would of been no violations. They could of blamed it on a new coach coming in and not understanding the system that was in place. But that did not happen. RR frankly looked like a big liar. How can somebody look so sincere during the interview - while knowing all along that he was lying. No school wants the NCAA sniffing around campus - and I agree many (if not all) schools violate rules of some kind. The NCAA knows that and does not have the man power to police every sport (male and female) and every division. They rely on the schools. The more organized you are - the less you have to worry about. I think Ohio State is also wise with the people they hire. Call it what you want - but it helps. The AD at Ohio State (Gene Smith) is on the NCAA basketball committee and is involved with other NCAA operations. I'm sure he has connected friends - and that helps. You must have a check and balance system in place just in case the NCAA wants to see paper work to back up your argument. When Michigan and RR was unable to do so - it was trouble. Michigan will overcome this - but this is not what a rebuilding program needs. You need all the practice time, coaches and offers you can get.

[Silver Bullet]

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are brushing this off. The NCAA is basically accusing Um of breaking rules then lying to cover it up. Forget about the original wrong-doings...I'm sure the NCAA is quite upset that Um was trying to railroad their investigation by giving false information. I'm sure Sten could probably tell you that courts don't take too kindly to people lying to them. It doesn't matter the magnitude of the dishonesty...if it's proven your ass is grass. I agree that an extra 30 minutes here or an extra hour of practice there isn't worthy of any major punishment and I'm sure the NCAA isn't overly concerned with that either. But lying to the governing body is only going to piss them off and ensures they will dig a little deeper and I'm sure they won't stop until they find something.

[tpilews]

I'm kind of surprised that so many people are brushing this off. The NCAA is basically accusing Um of breaking rules then lying to cover it up. Forget about the original wrong-doings...I'm sure the NCAA is quite upset that Um was trying to railroad their investigation by giving false information. I'm sure Sten could probably tell you that courts don't take too kindly to people lying to them. It doesn't matter the magnitude of the dishonesty...if it's proven your ass is grass. I agree that an extra 30 minutes here or an extra hour of practice there isn't worthy of any major punishment and I'm sure the NCAA isn't overly concerned with that either. But lying to the governing body is only going to piss them off and ensures they will dig a little deeper and I'm sure they won't stop until they find something.

Wasn't the accusation of lying from one person, not everyone in the department?

[The Michigan Man]

RR is ultimately responsible for the conduct of his employees. There is a reason why coaches hire a big staff, they can't be everywhere and keep track of everything. I'm sure that if he knew the players were stretching and extra 20 minutes each practice or that a staff member was watching a practice when he shouldn't have been, he certainly wouldn't have made the same statements. RR has to take a hit for what his employees did - however, the NCAA did not say there was a loss of institutional control, so the consequences will be self-imposed with the blessing of the NCAA.

Listen, we can all try to give RR the electric chair for jaywalking, and jaywalking is certainly prohibited by an ordinance, but that doesn't change the fact that he was merely jaywalking and nothing more. All of the grandstanding and exaggerating in the world won't make it anything more.

[Blue In Ohio]

I think many of you are wrong about USC - I think they are going to get hit harder then many of you think. As an outsider looking in - I'm surprised a school like Michigan would not be on top of stuff like this. You would have to think that the AD would have some kind of system in place before RR even arrived. What did they do when Carr was there ? A violation like this does make it look like the program and the AD is not on the same page - thus the phrase 'loss of control". I think that might be excessive - but it is what it is. You guys can slam Ohio State all you want but they have the largest athletic department in the nation (along with Texas) - and they have procedures in place. The NCAA has come in and looked at Ohio State in the past for several sports and were pleased with not only the organization - but the cooperation as well. That is why the basketball team got off so lightly - the Buckeyes helped the NCAA with their findings and did not hide anything. That was not the case with Michigan. Now some of you might not like this - but RR tried to cover this up. He came out and tearfully defended his program, players and coaches. He said right to the camera that there was no truth to the charges and no violations were commited. That was far from the truth. When he was asked to provide the papers needed to clear his program - he could not. I think not being truthful up front angers the NCAA. He made the NCAA work to find out what was really going on - and they did. Once they found the infractions there was no way that they were not going to do something.

I think if Michigan would of reported this - there would of been no violations. They could of blamed it on a new coach coming in and not understanding the system that was in place. But that did not happen. RR frankly looked like a big liar. How can somebody look so sincere during the interview - while knowing all along that he was lying. No school wants the NCAA sniffing around campus - and I agree many (if not all) schools violate rules of some kind. The NCAA knows that and does not have the man power to police every sport (male and female) and every division. They rely on the schools. The more organized you are - the less you have to worry about. I think Ohio State is also wise with the people they hire. Call it what you want - but it helps. The AD at Ohio State (Gene Smith) is on the NCAA basketball committee and is involved with other NCAA operations. I'm sure he has connected friends - and that helps. You must have a check and balance system in place just in case the NCAA wants to see paper work to back up your argument. When Michigan and RR was unable to do so - it was trouble. Michigan will overcome this - but this is not what a rebuilding program needs. You need all the practice time, coaches and offers you can get.

Your right nut Michigan should begin cheating as soon as possible and then be sure to turn itself in every time it does that. It's one way to get away with it.

[The Michigan Man]

Your right nut Michigan should begin cheating as soon as possible and then be sure to turn itself in every time it does that. It's one way to get away with it.

Haha, yes, tUOS has created a very elaborate and efficient system of comitting infractions, admitting to them, and then moving on to commit even more. I guess that is the preferred method over just following the rules.

[Sten Carlson]

I'm sure Sten could probably tell you that courts don't take too kindly to people lying to them. It doesn't matter the magnitude of the dishonesty...if it's proven your ass is grass... But lying to the governing body is only going to piss them off and ensures they will dig a little deeper and I'm sure they won't stop until they find something.

You're correct SB, courts don't take too kindly to being lied to. However, there are several glaring problems with your analogy. First, RR was not under oath. i.e., his statements (as far as I know) concerning his belief that no "wrong doing" had been done weren't made under penalty of perjury. Further, if I am not mistaken, he was speaking to the media when he said that. When one speaks to the media, there is no formal requirement that one tell the truth the way there is in court. Even when speaking to the NCAA, I am not sure if a person's testimony is held to the same legal standard as you're proposing in your analogy. But, considering the way the NCAA treated Des Bryant from Ok. St., maybe they really hate when people are not 100% forthright with them.

Was RR lying when he said that? Maybe not, as it seems that the differences between schools' administration of their players may differs significantly enough that it might have simply been an oversight (I am not excusing anything, simply saying that there may have been other circumstances besides intentional wrongdoing at play). Secondly, this sounds a lot more like a negligence issue, as opposed to an intentional issue. RR (or his staff based on respondeat superior) had a duty to perform certain administrative functions, which apparently weren't performed, or at least weren't perform on a few occasions . If he (they) was negligent at the time, but was unaware of the fact that his omission to act caused the violation, then he was telling the truth (as he understood it) when he said that there was no wrong doing. To claim that he is was lying, and hold him in contempt, the claimant would have to prove up that fact. I am not defending RR, nor the staff, but I do think the whole thing is a bit excessive.

If, on the other hand, RR was aware of the violations, and then lied to cover it up, I would have to say that I think he made a very poor decision. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as I think that he's been around the coacingh game long enough to know that a) you're better off to self-report to the NCAA, and b) that a few minutes of extra practice isn't really going to make that much difference so as to warrant the risk. Furthermore, despite what Nut claims, there is a great deal of evidence that other school violate these rules all the time.

First, and most importantly, there is a rule governing such things. By definition, if there is a rule in place, it is because teams were, and most likely continue to, press the envelop of what is allowed and what is not. That doesn't mitigate the violation(s), but it indicates that throughout college athletics there is a constant struggle between the coaching staffs and the NCAA over the time spent with student-athletes. If there were no issue, there would be no rule. Knowing that every coach knows that the NCAA isn't wiretapping and eavesdropping, and doesn't have the man power to patrol every team, there is bound to be some rule bending and line skirting. Secondly, and perhaps more practically, OSU's JT came out days after the allegations broke and said there was nothing of merit to them, and that EVERY school (presumably even his own) would be found guilty of such violation SHOULD THE NCAA CHOOSE TO LOOK INTO THE MATTER. So we know that there was enough of a problem to warrant rules, and that other coaches at the time admitted that "everyone is doing it", then the obvious culprit here is not a malevolent or even a negligent RR, but the diligent (albeit hateful) investigation of the Detroit Free Press and their crack team of sports writers. As many others have pointed out, had the Columbus paper had the same anti-OSU stance as the Freep has toward all things Michigan, and especially RR's Michigan, perhaps this issue wouldn't have become so overblown. Name another major football program in the nation that has a major paper with such a vendetta against them? I can assure it, it's not Texas as Mack Brown can do no wrong in the eyes of Statesman. Think the Gainsville paper rips apart Meyer? Or the Norman paper calls players that left the program in an effort to dig up dirt on Stoops? Who can blame them though, they're just doing they jobs, and they are human beings with opinions and agenda all their own. However, I find Nut's continual use of the word "cheating" to be a obnoxiously excessive, as is the stance of the Freep that is somehow a cardinal sin on the part of RR -- especially in comparison to all the other scandals and investigations occurring in and around college athletics.

If RR remains the Michigan head coach for any length of time I have to give him the utmost credit for weathering this storm. I think he's been put through as much, if not more difficulty (some his own making, but much not) than any other incoming coach that I can think of.

[1OSUNUT]

Sten -

When you break the rules on purpose - what is it called ? Now you might think that RR was not under oath and not sworn to tell the truth - but he was speaking to the masses. When you go in front of the media with tears in your eyes defending your program and the charges brought against it - it is like being on trial. It's the court of pubic opinion. Sure if you you lie to media it's not against the law - but it paints you in a light that is not very good. I think people question RR's honesty even more and that his word does not mean a thing. When you lie to people you anger them. Look at how many baseball players lied about steroid use. They have been blasted 100 times worse then the guys that just came out and admitted it, said they were sorry and moved on. Using the word cheating is not excessive - it's the truth. Just remember that if the Michigan program was doing everything right - the Free Press would have nothing to report. It's RR and the Michigan program that is giving the Free Press it's ammo.

[bluefan]

Sten -

When you break the rules on purpose - what is it called ? Now you might think that RR was not under oath and not sworn to tell the truth - but he was speaking to the masses. When you go in front of the media with tears in your eyes defending your program and the charges brought against it - it is like being on trial. It's the court of pubic opinion. Sure if you you lie to media it's not against the law - but it paints you in a light that is not very good. I think people question RR's honesty even more and that his word does not mean a thing. When you lie to people you anger them. Look at how many baseball players lied about steroid use. They have been blasted 100 times worse then the guys that just came out and admitted it, said they were sorry and moved on. Using the word cheating is not excessive - it's the truth. Just remember that if the Michigan program was doing everything right - the Free Press would have nothing to report. It's RR and the Michigan program that is giving the Free Press it's ammo.

Hey, dumbass, where did it say in the notice of allegations that UM intentionally did any of this? The practice thing was an issue of whether stretching and warm ups were to be considered as countable. UM came out and said they thought it wasn't. This QC coach lied on his own and Compliance Guy (who knows more about the rules than even the NCAA) said that was on that particular guy and him alone. I'm failing to see where your stupid biased ass can make a clear and definite statement that RR lied when even the allegations point to gray areas and one peon coach that acted on his own.

[bluefan]

To the moderators:
On February 26th at 7:53AM I called a dumbass a dumbass. I then proceeded to call his ass stupid and biased. I am notifying you of these infractions so I shouldn't be punished. See uos' compliance department for precedence in this case.

Sincerely and respectfully,

bluefan

[GoBlue21]

Milestone post #1000 for me....

Nut,

tUOS does it too, what don't you understand about that. THEY CAME OUT IN 'PUBLIC' AND SAID IT THEMSELVES! So apparently tUOS is CHEATING too...Double standard much???

Remember this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4438648

Players say extra work necessary

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Ohio State players say if their rivals at Michigan are putting in extra time, they're not alone.

So are the Buckeyes. And so is any team, they say, that wants to be any good.

Michigan's coaching staff has been accused by a handful of current and former players -- all speaking anonymously -- of pushing too hard and forcing them to put in too many hours.

Ohio State captains Kurt Coleman and Doug Worthington and head coach Jim Tressel all said Tuesday that it takes extra work to compete these days in major college football -- and the players who want to be great understand that.

The NCAA may have a 20-hour per week cap, but the players don't live by that.

"I think Michigan is probably abiding by the rules," said Coleman, a starting safety. "But, you know, to be great you have to put in more than 20 hours. That's just the minimum. In any great program, each player is putting in more than what they're required to. And it's all on their own. That's what takes a program to the next level, when guys are going above and beyond the call of duty."

Worthington said that no matter what the coaches say -- or the NCAA -- players who want to get better will become workaholics. He said it was up to the upperclassmen to make sure that the younger players kept their noses to the grindstone.

"It's hard to be a good football team giving 20 hours, but you know the rules and that's why leaders and captains and seniors have to make sure we keep guys after and we watch more film," the starting defensive lineman said. "Do it on our time, but make sure we know it's nothing mandatory. But if you want to be good, it takes more than just 20 hours."

Tressel all but said it's useless to try to restrain players from working at a sport.

"What makes it difficult is how good these kids want to be," he said. "Sometimes you have to chain the doors of the Woody Hayes [football] center, you know, to get them out of there. These kids want to be good. They want to train. They want to get their buddies in there and throw the ball around, those kinds of things."

Tressel went to great lengths to say that he and his staff do not prescribe extra workouts for players beyond what they can meet during their allotted 20 hours per week during the season. But that doesn't mean Ohio State's players are only working 20 hours per week: Tressel said it's foolish to try to rein in young, committed and ambitious athletes.

"It'd be like telling our med students, 'We're going to close the library,'" he said. "You've got to let them train. There is a fine line, but the safeguards we have are we have set schedules and forms that we fill out, just like everyone."

Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez said Monday that the Wolverines follow the NCAA rules on required work, but his comments essentially mirrored Tressel's: Players were so eager to work well beyond the NCAA caps that they often called Michigan's coaches to open up the weight room.

Rodriguez installed a rigorous conditioning regimen at Michigan when he was hired after the 2007 season. While some players struggled to adapt, most credited it with improving their athleticism and several former Wolverines now in the NFL praised the program after working out at the school in the offseason.

Tressel said each time he has taken a head coaching job -- in 1986 at Youngstown State and again in 2001 at Ohio State -- players came up to him to tell him that under the prior regime the team had lost its discipline and toughness and needed to work harder.

"So I think deep down kids want to work hard," he said. "I haven't had anyone come in and say, 'You know what, Coach? We spent too much time at it and that's why we didn't do as well as we wanted to do.'"

[bluefan]

Hey, goblue21,just what in the hell do you think you're doing? Don't you go bringing common sense and facts into this. There is no place for either in a uos fan's world.

[tpilews]

Hey, goblue21,just what in the hell do you think you're doing? Don't you go bringing common sense and facts into this. There is no place for either in a uos fan's world.

Haha, ahhhhhhh.... off to a good start today. Nominated for February Post of the Month.

[Silver Bullet]

Sten-

Say what you will about Oath (we can debate all day what swearing to God means to individual people), but we can't argue the fact that lying to a governing body is a serious offense. Now this coach isn't going to go to jail for it (like he would if he lied under oath) but the NCAA is going to react strongly to that. I'm sure in their eyes any individual coach speaks for the program's coaching staff as a whole. That includes RR. I'm not sure if lying itself carries any additional punishment but like I said before, the NCAA is going to take being lied to as a jumping off point to do some serious digging.

[bluefan]

Sten-

Say what you will about Oath (we can debate all day what swearing to God means to individual people), but we can't argue the fact that lying to a governing body is a serious offense. Now this coach isn't going to go to jail for it (like he would if he lied under oath) but the NCAA is going to react strongly to that. I'm sure in their eyes any individual coach speaks for the program's coaching staff as a whole. That includes RR. I'm not sure if lying itself carries any additional punishment but like I said before, the NCAA is going to take being lied to as a jumping off point to do some serious digging.

Again, you are wrong and it's been set by precedence. I won't link to Mgoblog because your head would asplode going there. There are two cases - one at SDSU and FIU where assistant coaches lied and told others to lie and the NCAA held them solely responsible - NOT the program. Again again, show me where RR lied. Show me where the NCAA thinks or is accusing RR of lying. Please do not let facts or preceding, similar cases get in the way of your awesome and begged for opinion.

[Silver Bullet]

Again, you are wrong and it's been set by precedence. I won't link to Mgoblog because your head would asplode going there. There are two cases - one at SDSU and FIU where assistant coaches lied and told others to lie and the NCAA held them solely responsible - NOT the program. Again again, show me where RR lied. Show me where the NCAA thinks or is accusing RR of lying. Please do not let facts or preceding, similar cases get in the way of your awesome and begged for opinion.

Again, like I said the in my post, that coach may not be held personally responsible but the program as a whole will. In those cases the individuals were punished. Let's see, my ability to read uncovers the fact that the University was put on probation and had a position eliminated. Maybe probation isn't a big deal to Um anymore....boy how times have changed. The same article says the one of the factors that played into the suspension was the coach was involved in the allegations and lied about it. You'll be happy to know that my head is intact and I was also able to give you another awesome and begged for opinion.

[1OSUNUT]

A look at what the NCAA says are five potentially major rules violations involving the University of Michigan football program. The NCAA outlined them in a "notice of allegations" that was received by the university Monday and released to the public on Tuesday.

1. From January 2008 through September 2009, the Michigan football program "exceeded the permissible limit on the number of coaches ... engaged in on- and off-field coaching activities."

2. From January 2008 through at least September 2009, the Michigan football program "violated NCAA legislation governing playing and practice seasons when it permitted football staff members to monitor and conduct voluntary summer workouts, conducted impermissible activities outside the playing season, required football student-athletes to participate in summer conditioning activities for disciplinary purposes and exceeded time limits for countable athletically related activities during and outside of the playing season."

3. A graduate assistant coach provided "false and misleading information to the institution and enforcement staff when questioned about his involvement in and knowledge of possible NCAA violations."

4. Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance within the football program."

5. The Michigan athletic department from January 2008 through at least September 2009 "failed to adequately monitor its football program to assure compliance regarding the limitations on the number, duties and activities of countable football coaches and time limits for countable athletically related activities."

You guys can phrase this anyway you want to make it look better in your eyes - but some of these things were more then a simple oversite on the part of RR. I think he did know of the wrong doings, I think he did try to summit false information to cover it up and I think he was trying to get an unfair advantage in the effort to speed up the rebuilding. I find it hard to believe that all this was going on while he was asleep at the wheel. This is not about what other schools may or may not be doing - this is about Michigan. If you feel that there is a witch hunt being conducted on RR - then so be it. But from the way it looks on the outside the players in question and the Free Press were pretty dead on. It's hard to back up the argument that people are out to get him - when the stories are backed up with proof. How bad would the Free Press look if the NCAA came in and found everything in order - it would be their credibility that would be tarnished. Instead it's Michigan that is taking the heat for the first time in school history (for football) - and frankly this time it's deserved.

[Silver Bullet]

A look at what the NCAA says are five potentially major rules violations involving the University of Michigan football program. The NCAA outlined them in a "notice of allegations" that was received by the university Monday and released to the public on Tuesday.

1. From January 2008 through September 2009, the Michigan football program "exceeded the permissible limit on the number of coaches ... engaged in on- and off-field coaching activities."

2. From January 2008 through at least September 2009, the Michigan football program "violated NCAA legislation governing playing and practice seasons when it permitted football staff members to monitor and conduct voluntary summer workouts, conducted impermissible activities outside the playing season, required football student-athletes to participate in summer conditioning activities for disciplinary purposes and exceeded time limits for countable athletically related activities during and outside of the playing season."

3. A graduate assistant coach provided "false and misleading information to the institution and enforcement staff when questioned about his involvement in and knowledge of possible NCAA violations."

4. Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance within the football program."

5. The Michigan athletic department from January 2008 through at least September 2009 "failed to adequately monitor its football program to assure compliance regarding the limitations on the number, duties and activities of countable football coaches and time limits for countable athletically related activities."

You guys can phrase this anyway you want to make it look better in your eyes - but some of these things were more then a simple oversite on the part of RR. I think he did know of the wrong doings, I think he did try to summit false information to cover it up and I think he was trying to get an unfair advantage in the effort to speed up the rebuilding. I find it hard to believe that all this was going on while he was asleep at the wheel. This is not about what other schools may or may not be doing - this is about Michigan. If you feel that there is a witch hunt being conducted on RR - then so be it. But from the way it looks on the outside the players in question and the Free Press were pretty dead on. It's hard to back up the argument that people are out to get him - when the stories are backed up with proof. How bad would the Free Press look if the NCAA came in and found everything in order - it would be their credibility that would be tarnished. Instead it's Michigan that is taking the heat for the first time in school history (for football) - and frankly this time it's deserved.

That all makes too much sense and how dare you bring common sense into an argument with a Um fan (did I do that right Um fans?). RR had no idea what was going on. I mean Tressel can order drug sniffing dogs be deployed on visiting teams but how in the world is RR supposed to keep track of people that report directly to him?

[rickyleach]

nut and siverbullit , i guess the bottom line is none of us really know what is going to happen to michigan, except if the hammer comes down on michigan then what you have , posted validates you and if it doesnt then i guess you really dont know what you are talking about, i guess richrod should have self reported these in fractions ,dont you agree , then nothing would have happend.

[The Michigan Man]

That all makes too much sense and how dare you bring common sense into an argument with a Um fan (did I do that right Um fans?). RR had no idea what was going on. I mean Tressel can order drug sniffing dogs be deployed on visiting teams but how in the world is RR supposed to keep track of people that report directly to him?

The players stretched too long, an extra coach watched an activity, and a grad assistant fibbed - obviously Michigan should get the death penalty, that is much worse than what tUOS, USC, Florida St, etc. did. Another round of Kool Aid for the house.

Maybe we should delve into those 300-400 self reported violations that tUOS has had in the Tressel era. I bet 99% of them are worse than this ridiculous Michigan "transgression".

[rickyleach]

The players stretched too long, an extra coach watched an activity, and a grad assistant fibbed - obviously Michigan should get the death penalty, that is much worse than what tUOS, USC, Florida St, etc. did. Another round of Kool Aid for the house.

Maybe we should delve into those 300-400 self reported violations that tUOS has had in the Tressel era. I bet 99% of them are worse than this ridiculous Michigan "transgression".

MM , i agree, what the ncaa has said we violated ,although it may be fact is so rediculous ,it makes you wonder if the ncaa investigation committee doesnt have anything to do , and i believe if rr had self reported nothing would have been done. i sure hope david branden cleans up the house so richrod can do his job..

[Gobluerebirth]

RR didn't lie. We went 20 minutes over on sunday practices. Every sunday. It was a confusion about streatching from what I've gathered. That's not lying. Call it what you want.
This is such a load of horse shit.
Karma owes us, and myself a good season this year. All I'm saying. Haha.

[rickyleach]

the big10 better be ready for a focused michigan team this fall, say what you want rr will have them ready.

[michAGAIN]

A look at what the NCAA says are five potentially major rules violations involving the University of Michigan football program. The NCAA outlined them in a "notice of allegations" that was received by the university Monday and released to the public on Tuesday.

1. From January 2008 through September 2009, the Michigan football program "exceeded the permissible limit on the number of coaches ... engaged in on- and off-field coaching activities."

2. From January 2008 through at least September 2009, the Michigan football program "violated NCAA legislation governing playing and practice seasons when it permitted football staff members to monitor and conduct voluntary summer workouts, conducted impermissible activities outside the playing season, required football student-athletes to participate in summer conditioning activities for disciplinary purposes and exceeded time limits for countable athletically related activities during and outside of the playing season."

3. A graduate assistant coach provided "false and misleading information to the institution and enforcement staff when questioned about his involvement in and knowledge of possible NCAA violations."

4. Michigan coach Rich Rodriguez "failed to promote an atmosphere of compliance within the football program."

5. The Michigan athletic department from January 2008 through at least September 2009 "failed to adequately monitor its football program to assure compliance regarding the limitations on the number, duties and activities of countable football coaches and time limits for countable athletically related activities."

You guys can phrase this anyway you want to make it look better in your eyes - but some of these things were more then a simple oversite on the part of RR. I think he did know of the wrong doings, I think he did try to summit false information to cover it up and I think he was trying to get an unfair advantage in the effort to speed up the rebuilding. I find it hard to believe that all this was going on while he was asleep at the wheel. This is not about what other schools may or may not be doing - this is about Michigan. If you feel that there is a witch hunt being conducted on RR - then so be it. But from the way it looks on the outside the players in question and the Free Press were pretty dead on. It's hard to back up the argument that people are out to get him - when the stories are backed up with proof. How bad would the Free Press look if the NCAA came in and found everything in order - it would be their credibility that would be tarnished. Instead it's Michigan that is taking the heat for the first time in school history (for football) - and frankly this time it's deserved.

1OSUNUT - you are too funny. Hey, there's a guy J-walking right now in Columbus. You should get the National Guard, FBI and SWAT team assembled for action.

[1OSUNUT]

I can see based on your posts that many of you are in shock. It's funny how when Michigan gets in trouble it's BS and the NCAA is full of crap - yet when it happens to others, it must be true. Even though it's Michigan that got caught - your still trying to point fingers at everybody else. I wish just one of you would just admit that you got caught cheating - without placing blame on the former players, The Free Press, the guy on the grassy knoll, etc. Just face it Michigan F'ed up and got caught.

[Wolvrin704]

I can see based on your posts that many of you are in shock. It's funny how when Michigan gets in trouble it's BS and the NCAA is full of crap - yet when it happens to others, it must be true. Even though it's Michigan that got caught - your still trying to point fingers at everybody else. I wish just one of you would just admit that you got caught cheating - without placing blame on the former players, The Free Press, the guy on the grassy knoll, etc. Just face it Michigan F'ed up and got caught.

We got caught because of a rag paper whose sole purpose is to bring down RR and the UM athletic program. Wake me up when the Columbus Dispatch or other local papers near other D1 universities begin doing the same.

[Sten Carlson]

I can see based on your posts that many of you are in shock. It's funny how when Michigan gets in trouble it's BS and the NCAA is full of crap - yet when it happens to others, it must be true. Even though it's Michigan that got caught - your still trying to point fingers at everybody else. I wish just one of you would just admit that you got caught cheating - without placing blame on the former players, The Free Press, the guy on the grassy knoll, etc. Just face it Michigan F'ed up and got caught.

Nut,

as I said before, I really take exception to your use of the word "cheating". I'll be the first to admit that Michigan and RR messed up and got caught -- no doubt about that. However, in this context, given the detailed explanations that accompanied the NCAA's findings, I think it's a stretch to call what Michigan did "cheating". Have you ever received a speeding ticket? You know that despite what you think that is a CRIMINAL charge? Are you a CRIMINAL? Are all people that have been written speeding tickets (nearly 100k per day in the US) CRIMINALS? I don't believe so, and I think you would have a hard time effectively arguing that they are with any seriousness.

Speed limits are writing in the codes under the auspicious of safety, and by the same token the NCAA rules that Michigan violated are in place for mostly administrative purposes. There are many other rules the NCAA has implemented that ARE in fact about cheating -- like paying players to sign, giving gifts to family members to sign, covering up felonies to keep star players on the field, etc. Those all involve a Mens Rea or a guilty mind. This term is essential in the law. Without the intent of the person/people involved, there are many actions that do not rise to the level of criminal behavior. Similarly, without the intentionally breaking the rules the actions of a football program don't rise to the level of cheating. You say it sounds like RR was INTENTIONALLY trying to break the rules, but that is not the way the NCAA found - had they, they would have said so and the hammer would have fallen much harder than it did. It sounds more like there were QC people, Compliance officers, some grad assistants, and other lower level people that had been doing what they always have done, and it just so happened that the NCAA came snooping around after the Freep did some muck-racking. Are those activities commonplace around college football? JT seemed to indicate that they were -- but, we'll never really know now will we.

Michigan, and therefor RR, "failed to adequately monitor its football program to assure compliance regarding the limitations on the number, duties and activities of countable football coaches and time limits for countable athletically related activities." Sounds an awful lot like, "I was driving along, 'Paradise City' came on the radio, I cranked it up, sped up a bit, a guy in a BMW went flying by, I stepped on it a bit, and didn't see that the speed limit had dropped from 70 to 55..." The officer doesn't care, and neither should the NCAA -- BOTH were caught breaking a KNOWN REGULATION. But, the driver is not a CRIMINAL, and Michigan and RR aren't CHEATERS (despite your insistence to paint them as such).

[1OSUNUT]

Do I think that a person caught speeding is a criminal - NO. I do however think that they are good people who were caught doing a criminal act at that time. I'm not saying RR is a cheater he just got caught cheating - that's all. You can use all the fancy law school words you want - it cannot change the facts.

[StevieBrownforHeisman]

Rockie -

Let me try to explain this to you. Every single school in the country in every sport commits minor infractions. It could be as simple as sending an email with a players name on it that is not a high school senior - that is an infraction. When these minor things happen - schools report them to the NCAA. The NCAA cannot patrol every school - so it's the job of each school to in a way police themself. The thought is that by reporting yourself for minor or level 1 infractions - it shows you have control over your coaches and programs. Normally nothing happens when these minor level 1 infractions are commited - so long as a pattern does not develope. The NCAA rule book in almost impossible to follow to a T - and the NCAA knows that. Many of the things you have stated above are not true - or internet rumors. The Buckeyes did not give TP a corvette to attend prom in - nor did a booster. He used a car that belonged to a relative or family friend - kids do that all the time. The Buckeyes had a secondary violation when Tressel took Anthony Gonzalez and Stan White to the Final Four a few years ago on a private plane. Tressel assumed that because both had used up their eligibility and were signed to agents - that they were no longer considered student-athletes. He was wrong and turned himself in - he was just trying to reward them for being Academic All-Americans. I find it pretty funny when I hear all the things you accuse Ohio State of doing to land the talent that they do - it's really comical.

Maybe we just have good coaches, recruiters and facilities. Also winning breeds winning - and kids want to be associated with that. Thad Matta is turning Ohio State basketball into a recruiting machine. Sure he knows some kids will be one and done - but it is all about winning. It seems that ever since Michigan got caught cheating - we have heard every excuse in the book as to why it happened. The people on this site call the charges minor - but that is not the case in the eyes of the NCAA. Michigan WILL suffer some kind of punishment for the 5 violations that have been found. You would think that RR would follow something like that more carefully knowing so many people are watching his every move. Maybe he is used to getting away with stuff like that - who knows. The truth is that the former players ratted him out and the NCAA called him on it - he was unable to back up his claim that they did nothing wrong. RR is at fault and so is the school. Yet many of you want to point the finger at other programs yelling "What about them ?" . Just because Michigan got caught does not mean everybody is doing it. Take your punishment like a man and stop pointing fingers - nobody like a nark.

Do you want to know why Matta recruits well at Ohio State?

Do some research into how college basketball recruiting works. Ever heard of this guy "World Wide Wes" & his work with John Calipari? College Basketball recruiting is run by AAU "Coaches" who filter their players to certain schools in return for benefits. DONT YOU FIND IT A LITTLE CURIOUS THAT A SCHOOL WITH ABSOLUTELY ZERO BASKETBALL TRADITIION CAN RECRUIT SO WELL?

Futhermore, way to take a thread that had NOTHING to do with OSU and completely hijack it. Classic OSUnut.

[Sten Carlson]

You can use all the fancy law school words you want - it cannot change the facts.

Fancy law school words? LOL! Ok, I'll dumb it down for you bit it subsequent conversations (opps, there I go again). Words don't change facts Nut, but what deeper investigation, and the use of more complex words, does is pull back the layers of understanding to a greater degree than simplistic words and phrases like, "caught cheating" do. To truly understand something, to really know what is going on, one needs to dig a bit deeper than the level that you seem incapable of surpassing.

If speeding is a criminal act, where is the corpus delicti? As here, there is no "damaged party" to bring forth a claim, only the "regulation"; there is nothing other than the tolling of a clock and the counting of heads that indicated an infraction had been committed (much the like of the reading on a speedometer and the signs on the side of the road). Further, there was a misunderstanding by Michigan's compliance officer of the classification by the NCAA of stretching time -- neither rise to the level of "cheating". Both are oversight and perhaps negligence, but neither "serious violation" as reported by the NCAA indicates that it was intentional, nor that Michigan gained any competitive advantage as a result of the acts.

Just admit that you're so happy that this is happening to Michigan that you've had a raging hard-on since the story broke in Aug. (it's call priopism, btw, according the Viagra ads, you should consult a physician). You're a pathetic troll Nut, one who admittedly has trouble understanding "dem fancy book learnin' words..." (btw, it's SHOULD HAVE not SHOULD OF you booger eating moron). You do nothing but spew forth inane and overly simplistic garbage that may pass of high brow commentary in AHIA, but it isn't going to cut it with a crowd like the one that you've infected with your presence. We all know that this is a B.S. agenda driven witch hunt, and these "serious violations" are basically meaningless in the overall scheme of college football -- except you.

[1OSUNUT]

Nobody is trying to turn this into Buckeye thread by any means. But if you read the posts prior to mine you would see that I was responding to the comments made about the Buckeye programs by your fellow bitter Michigan brothers. The Buckeyes are not the ones on trial here in the court of public opinion - Michigan is. I was just giving examples of some of the wrong doings by Ohio State.

Did you ever think that schools like Ohio State just have coaches that are good recruiters and the kids want to play there ? Why is it that whenever a kid picks a different school - he is a loser or foul play is involved ? But when they pick Michigan they are great and it was on the up and up - that is unless they leave. It's that kind of arrogance that amazes me. You would think that after everything your basketball, hockey and football programs have gone through - the arrogance would not be present. The fact that it does surprises the hell out of me. It kills you guys so much that Ohio State has blown past you in the major sports - that you have resorted to low blows and false alligations. It's a shame that you have sunk to that level.

[Sten Carlson]

It's a shame that you have sunk to that level.

Nut, you of all people, have no standing when it comes to speaking about sinking to a shameful level of behavior. You have MORE POSTS on a fairly active rival website than any other poster, Michigan fan or otherwise.

As far as this mythical "court of public opinion" that you holding up as the bastion of all righteousness, the court would not have even been enacted had it not been for a few agenda driven journalists who hate Michigan. If this had been a surprise nationwide sweep of college football programs in which all the "major" programs were audited and checked for "letter of the law compliance", and Michigan was the only one "caught cheating", I'd acquiesce that your position holds merit. But, your "babe in the woods" routine concerning the JT's comments about "everyone does it" and the 300+ self-reported violations makes your argument devoid of all credibility. This court of public opinion is also more concerned about what some slut is wearing to the Oscars and which moron is going to win on Survivor than they are (for the most part) about the nation's economy crashing around them and their Constitutional rights diminishing significantly with every session of Congress. Sensationalism sells newspapers, the Free Press is going under, so the raked up as much dirt about Michigan and RR as they could possibly muster, TO SELL NEWSPAPERS. They are aiming for the lowest common denominator, and you've proven them to be successful.

[primetime101]

some people within the program and the media haven't given RRod a fair shot since the day he arrived..his back has been against the wall since he was hired, because apparently he isn't a "michigan man" which just bugs the fuck out of me..he gives a shit if he isn't from within the program, i just want someone to win!!!..anyway, i still believe in RRod and the only way he is going to get this extra baggage, Detroit Free Press, ex-players talking about him, etc. to stop is to simply start winning games..there will be no prouder moment in my life than for RRod to succeed and tell all of his haters to fuck off..he deserves a purple heart of courage for what he's gone through. and even if he doesn't succeed, he has earned my respect for the way he has handled these past 2-3 years..i just wish that everyone was "all in" for michigan

[rickyleach]

Let me set your record/ nut straight , ohio state isnt any sort of measuring stick for michigan , at the present time osu happens to be doing better in the major sports then michigan , we dont and never will look at ourselves and say ,man i wish we were as good as ohio state , remember we invented the measuring stick in college sports ,just look at the all time record.

[The Michigan Man]

You can use all the fancy law school words you want

"Fancy law school words"? You sound like a character off of the Beverly Hillbillies (and not Mr. Drysdale).

[amazinblue]

...Both are oversight and perhaps negligence, but neither "serious violation" as reported by the NCAA indicates that it was intentional, nor that Michigan gained any competitive advantage as a result of the acts.

Sten,

I believe you've hit the nail on the head - and the key thing is "intent". Were the violations the NCAA cited intentional in nature, or a misinterpretation or misunderstanding of the guidelines and standards published by the NCAA.

When I've seen RR, he demonstrates both his responsibility and accountability for his actions. And, this "practice gate" affair, is just another example. He's stepped, accepted both accountability for what had happened, and the responsibility to develop and implement a solution. I'm not implying that this does not deserve attention - it does - and, it's been given that attention.

For those that are constantly attacking RR - my question is, what do you want him to do?

[Rugdog]

The NCAA and the freep are just one big joke. Reggie bush was at USC what 5 years ago and still nothing done yet this happens with Michigan just last year and they are right on top of it? I also get a kick of it being called major violations. I think major could be used for giving the players family free place to stay, providing a free car or cash payments. Practicing too long is major? I just don't get it. The NCAA is the same kind of Sham the BCS is. They have their favorites and the heck with everybody else.

The NCAA hasn't imposed punishments to USC because they wanted to get more evidence that they were cheating. USC didn't go out and get someone to inspect their program like Michigan did, that's why Michigan's violations were put on the fast track. USC just sat back and let the NCAA do all the work, which will cost them in the end. That's why OSU doesn't get shit for punishments, they report their violations themselves (which is dirty, but you got to admit smart) which makes the NCAA's job mostly finished. USC will get an ass whooping when all the violations come out and all the bullshit "Major" violations that UM got, will in fact, be in comparison a road bump. Trust me.