Doubt Garder Redshirts

[Rockie]

IMO that Devin's not red-shirting.

One of those two, Tate or Denard, will get injured at some point in the season and we're going to need him.

And those two better be careful, because once he gets in there, he may be hard to bench.

Just a gut feeling.

All these reports of Devin seeing the field and throwing the best downfield. Not saying he is going to start against UCONN, but sometime in the year, we could see him come in

[1OSUNUT]

I saw on a ESPN ticker that Tate is only going to get half of the reps with the first team - is it because of Gardner or Robinson ? Normally a sure fire starter gets 80% or so of the reps and the backup works with the second teamers. Whay is it that Tate is only getting 50% of the reps. I have to agree with you about Gardner - he might be hard to bench once he plays. I saw him play and he has a good arm and can run - but most importantly he is built to take a hit better then Tate. He will make a ton of mistakes like ALL freashman QB's do - but he fits the mold for the RR style of play better then any player on the roster.

[NorCal Buckeye]

IMO that Devin's not red-shirting.

One of those two, Tate or Denard, will get injured at some point in the season and we're going to need him.

And those two better be careful, because once he gets in there, he may be hard to bench.

Just a gut feeling.

All these reports of Devin seeing the field and throwing the best downfield. Not saying he is going to start against UCONN, but sometime in the year, we could see him come in

Good article on Rivals.com this morning about M QBs...one analyst says the last thing Rodriguez needs this year is a QB controversy. 2010 shapes up to be one of the most intriguing and important seasons in UM history. And by extension, the B10.

[amazinblue]

I saw on a ESPN ticker that Tate is only going to get half of the reps with the first team - is it because of Gardner or Robinson ? Normally a sure fire starter gets 80% or so of the reps and the backup works with the second teamers. Why is it that Tate is only getting 50% of the reps.

Nut,

Let's make an assumption and then do some simple math. The assumption is that Michigan has three talented QB's. The math is that there is 100% of snaps available to QB's - if they divide things "equally" - each QB will get 33% of the snaps. If TF gets 50% of the snaps - let's just assume they divide the others equally between DR and DG- so those two get 25% of the reps each. So - it's TF - 50%, DG - 25%, and DR 25% - and TF's getting twice as many reps as the other two.

We are in SPRING practice. Let's see how these young men develop - and, perhaps RR / Michigan will actually be able to implement and EXECUTE a multi-QB set - similar to what Meyer's planning for Florida this season. I agree that each QB has their strengths and weaknesses - but, I'm not at practice every day and haven't seen them throw much this spring. Therefore, I'll leave it to RR and the staff to reach their decision.

Also, my personal philosophy may be more "balanced" than RR's - and, I'd prefer a QB that throws and can run when he has to. However, I realize the influence I have in this decision (which, really is none) - and, I trust RR to make the decision that gives the team the best chances to win regularly this season.

[rickyleach]

I saw on a ESPN ticker that Tate is only going to get half of the reps with the first team - is it because of Gardner or Robinson ? Normally a sure fire starter gets 80% or so of the reps and the backup works with the second teamers. Whay is it that Tate is only getting 50% of the reps. I have to agree with you about Gardner - he might be hard to bench once he plays. I saw him play and he has a good arm and can run - but most importantly he is built to take a hit better then Tate. He will make a ton of mistakes like ALL freashman QB's do - but he fits the mold for the RR style of play better then any player on the roster.
nut have you seen tate in any of live spring ball, i feel the kid is still pretty good ,not as great as what i first thought , but he still is 145 lbs soke and wet ,and that aint going to get it done, he is a smart player but how many more times can we peel him off the carpet after a linebacker drills him , again i still feel he is the guy to beat out , and drob and dg will have a great shot at taking this team over , another big down side to tate is carring the football like a loaf of bread and then getting smoked and fumbling..

[bighousemike84]

I still think Gardner redshirts. I know that Rodriguez has said, more than once, that he would always prefer to redshirt his young QB's and he has the luxury of 2 experienced Quarterbacks in front of Gardner. Sure it would be hard to sit a guy who is as talented as Devin but he is a freshman, we have all seen freshmen play and we have all seen them drop balls and throw interceptions. Gardner should get a year to learn and then lets see what hes got.

As for Tate, what has always been the issue with him is that he is very close to his theoretical "cieling". As a young player he has been coached and he has trained to such a level that he has reached the majority of his potential. Robinson, on the other hand, is a player with a much higher cieling who is more likely to make a major improvement from year one to year two. Forcier is still an attractive option at QB but it isnt a bad idea for the coaches to play around with the lineup a bit, since spring ball is the last time the coaches can interact with the players in a coaching fashion it should be a priority for the coaches to sort out what kind of talent they have in the spring to get a better idea of a plan for the fall.

[1OSUNUT]

BigHouse -

I agree with you about Robinson having a higher cieling. If Tate tucks the ball and runs - would he scare you as a DC ? Sure he can get a first down here or there - but is he a legit weapon - NO. Now if Robinson can learn to throw - even if it's only to the level of say TP, he becomes a much more dangerous weapon. If Robinson was to roll out and tuck the ball - he can cause problems. He actually has the ability to take it to the house or rip off large chunks of yardage. Tate does throw the ball well - when he has time. He also tries to do to much and forces more balls then I'm sure many of you would like. Please don't tell me you guys all don't hold your breath every time he takes off holding the ball like a loaf of bread. I feel that if Michigan plays a team with a good secondary - Tate is a very average QB, almost one dimensional. That does not work in the RR system. He wants guys that force the defense to make a split second decision - and if they pick wrong, they pay. Tate is not big enough, strong enough or fast enough to really make you pay if you make a wrong choice - Robinson might be. He has to drastically improve his passing and his locking on to WR's habit - but it's possible. The no brainer choice is Gardner. Maybe not this year - but he is the future. He is the type of kid RR has been trying to get for several years. The big question is going to be - does RR have the time to redshirt him. Another season like the last two and somebody else will be coaching Gardner next year.

[tpilews]

BigHouse -

I agree with you about Robinson having a higher cieling. If Tate tucks the ball and runs - would he scare you as a DC ? Sure he can get a first down here or there - but is he a legit weapon - NO. Now if Robinson can learn to throw - even if it's only to the level of say TP, he becomes a much more dangerous weapon. If Robinson was to roll out and tuck the ball - he can cause problems. He actually has the ability to take it to the house or rip off large chunks of yardage. Tate does throw the ball well - when he has time. He also tries to do to much and forces more balls then I'm sure many of you would like. Please don't tell me you guys all don't hold your breath every time he takes off holding the ball like a loaf of bread. I feel that if Michigan plays a team with a good secondary - Tate is a very average QB, almost one dimensional. That does not work in the RR system. He wants guys that force the defense to make a split second decision - and if they pick wrong, they pay. Tate is not big enough, strong enough or fast enough to really make you pay if you make a wrong choice - Robinson might be. He has to drastically improve his passing and his locking on to WR's habit - but it's possible. The no brainer choice is Gardner. Maybe not this year - but he is the future. He is the type of kid RR has been trying to get for several years. The big question is going to be - does RR have the time to redshirt him. Another season like the last two and somebody else will be coaching Gardner next year.

All of the negatives you mention with regards to Tate can be attributed to him being a true freshman last year. If you think Tate won't become a better QB, you're sorely mistaken. I guess what excites me about Tate, more than Denard, is the passing game potential. UM has a ton of weapons to throw the ball to. In that offense, Tate doesn't have to be Pat White V.2 with his feet. If he can pick up 4 or 5 yards for a first down when the play breaks down, that's all he needs to do. If RR opens up the passing game with Tate, UM could be very dangerous in the coming years. I agree with others that have said Denard will receive more snaps. If his passing has truly gotten better, he would really be a change of pace QB.

In regards to RR being a running coach, there is just as much evidence to support that RR wants to throw the ball as much as he runs it. Actually, the evidence more points toward his offense being completely balanced, and not run heavy. Every single year under White, they threw the ball more the following year than the previous.

Bottom line is this... Tate has proven that he can be reliable and can lead the team to comeback victories, despite being a true freshman last year. He will only get better. For 2010, I see Gardner redshirting unless Tate or Denard get injured for an extended time. I see Gardner getting time in 2011 with Tate the starter, and Denard getting more reps at other spots on the field.

[Sten Carlson]

If Tate tucks the ball and runs - would he scare you as a DC ? Sure he can get a first down here or there - but is he a legit weapon - NO.

YouTube the run he had against ND when he broke the tackler's ankle and took it up the middle to the house -- that was when he was 100% healthy and confident. I agree with you, he might not be a pure runner like DR or DG, but he's got some wheels when he needs them and, at least then and a few other times in the season, he showed some moves. It remains to be seen what shakes out for TF this season, but I think he'll improve in throwing and running as it natural for a true freshman starter.


Now if Robinson can learn to throw - even if it's only to the level of say TP, he becomes a much more dangerous weapon. If Robinson was to roll out and tuck the ball - he can cause problems. He actually has the ability to take it to the house or rip off large chunks of yardage.

I agree that DR throwing and running with that kind of break away speed is going to give DC's nightmares. But, I'd be willing to bet that DR's throwing is pretty much comparable to TP's right now, and perhaps even a bit better. I cannot prove that statement, but DR's delivery is MUCH more natural and fluid than TP's and he seems to have comparable arm strength. BOTH suffer from accuracy problems, but a lot of that comes from not seeing the field properly, and that will progress as they mature.


Please don't tell me you guys all don't hold your breath every time he takes off holding the ball like a loaf of bread.

I did, for sure! From what I heard from people inside the AD though, that was attributed to his shoulder injury which makes the hand weak and unreliable while moving -- I am not making an excuse for his fumbling (it was pretty pathetic at times to be sure) but it should be cleared up this season. Even when he was just dropping the ball with little to no contact, he was still exhibiting the traits of a great QB -- his eyes were down field looking to make a play with either his arm or his feet. Who knows what the outcome would have been of those plays had he simply been able to grip the ball effectively the whole time. Again, no excuse, but I think it will be addressed and resolved (I hope).

[NorCal Buckeye]

I still think Gardner redshirts. I know that Rodriguez has said, more than once, that he would always prefer to redshirt his young QB's and he has the luxury of 2 experienced Quarterbacks in front of Gardner. Sure it would be hard to sit a guy who is as talented as Devin but he is a freshman, we have all seen freshmen play and we have all seen them drop balls and throw interceptions. Gardner should get a year to learn and then lets see what hes got.

As for Tate, what has always been the issue with him is that he is very close to his theoretical "cieling". As a young player he has been coached and he has trained to such a level that he has reached the majority of his potential. Robinson, on the other hand, is a player with a much higher cieling who is more likely to make a major improvement from year one to year two. Forcier is still an attractive option at QB but it isnt a bad idea for the coaches to play around with the lineup a bit, since spring ball is the last time the coaches can interact with the players in a coaching fashion it should be a priority for the coaches to sort out what kind of talent they have in the spring to get a better idea of a plan for the fall.

If last year was any indication of what the future holds, Rodriguez will probably have no choice but to activate the freshman. Here's why.

Rodriguez's offensive system is fundamentally flawed in that it places the most vital component of the offensive unit in harms way by making the quarterback a prime hit target on both passing and running plays. It's well known that the QB is the hardest position to coach and learn. The QB is the brains, and usually the leader of the offense. When the best QB goes down, offenses usually flounder. That is why it's taken as a given by most coaches that you protect the quarterback at all costs. He is the catalyst and most vital link in what makes the offense go. Throwing him into the teeth of opposing defenses is a prescription for failure. Others would say sheer madness.

Forcier is a good quarterback. He reminds me alot of Fran Tarkenton (anybody remember him?). Fran was a great one for the Vikings, for several years. What made him great was his scrambling ability. When pass plays weren't there, Fran would tuck it and fake defenders out of their shoes with his running. However, he was not a running back, and neither is Forcier. Forcier was not rugged enough to take the hits last year, and he won't be rugged enough this year either. He never will be, because he is a natural born QB. Not a running back.

I think Rodriguez really needs to make up his mind before September what kind of offense he is going to play. If it's pass oriented (and you have some good receivers) with Forcier only called on to run with scrambling out of broken pass plays, then you could be on to something that will work. If he is expecting Forcier to duplicate Pat White, I just don't see it happening. Because he won't be able to take the hits.

Rodriguez needs to get his through his head, that he is now coaching in the Big Ten. A conference that is synomnous with bone breaking defense. Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan (historically) are all names that resonate with brick wall run defense. The best way to beat the elite B10 teams is to go over the top on them, a la USC versus UM, IL, OSU, and PSU in recent big games. You don't make a living with running QBs in the B10. It takes power running to do the job here; Chris Wells for example.

If you guys come out of the gate with Forcier as your #1 running back, I see another very painful season in store for you.

[Rockie]

FWIW, Michael Taylor said today on WTKA, that the message that is being sent to Tate is that this thing isn't going to be handed to you (Starting positon), just cause you started 12 games last year. Mike felt that the starting qb will not be decided till the fall and probably not decided till right up till game time. In a lot of ways this is good for Tate and everyone, cause the competition in practice, is going to make them better on Game Day. Mike also brought up the fact that the Defense will be better this year just for the fact that you will have more numbers playing and guys can get rest for about 6-8 plays a game and be fresh in the fourth quarter (which killed Michgian). Sounds like Cam Gordon is going to be something Special at SS and Justin Turner is moving to FS.:)

[amazinblue]

If you guys come out of the gate with Forcier as your #1 running back, I see another very painful season in store for you.

NorCal,

Thanks for your assessment - it was quite insightful, for you. I checked the depth chart and the good news is that TF isn't even listed at RB. Whew - for a minute there I thought you said something that made sense and I'd have to think or worry about.

[NorCal Buckeye]

NorCal,

Thanks for your assessment - it was quite insightful, for you. I checked the depth chart and the good news is that TF isn't even listed at RB. Whew - for a minute there I thought you said something that made sense and I'd have to think or worry about.

Looks like you need some guidance with your research, no surprise. Check the team's stats sheet and see if you see what I see...rushing carries, Tate Forcier - 118. That makes him #1 running back since the guy with the second most carries was Brandon Minor at 96. He was the leading RB by a significant margin. No wonder he ended up playing hurt.

I would have thought after losing your bet to me last year you would respect my wisdom by now. LOL!

[bighousemike84]

If last year was any indication of what the future holds, Rodriguez will probably have no choice but to activate the freshman. Here's why.

Rodriguez's offensive system is fundamentally flawed in that it places the most vital component of the offensive unit in harms way by making the quarterback a prime hit target on both passing and running plays. It's well known that the QB is the hardest position to coach and learn. The QB is the brains, and usually the leader of the offense. When the best QB goes down, offenses usually flounder. That is why it's taken as a given by most coaches that you protect the quarterback at all costs. He is the catalyst and most vital link in what makes the offense go. Throwing him into the teeth of opposing defenses is a prescription for failure. Others would say sheer madness.

Forcier is a good quarterback. He reminds me alot of Fran Tarkenton (anybody remember him?). Fran was a great one for the Vikings, for several years. What made him great was his scrambling ability. When pass plays weren't there, Fran would tuck it and fake defenders out of their shoes with his running. However, he was not a running back, and neither is Forcier. Forcier was not rugged enough to take the hits last year, and he won't be rugged enough this year either. He never will be, because he is a natural born QB. Not a running back.

I think Rodriguez really needs to make up his mind before September what kind of offense he is going to play. If it's pass oriented (and you have some good receivers) with Forcier only called on to run with scrambling out of broken pass plays, then you could be on to something that will work. If he is expecting Forcier to duplicate Pat White, I just don't see it happening. Because he won't be able to take the hits.

Rodriguez needs to get his through his head, that he is now coaching in the Big Ten. A conference that is synomnous with bone breaking defense. Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan (historically) are all names that resonate with brick wall run defense. The best way to beat the elite B10 teams is to go over the top on them, a la USC versus UM, IL, OSU, and PSU in recent big games. You don't make a living with running QBs in the B10. It takes power running to do the job here; Chris Wells for example.

If you guys come out of the gate with Forcier as your #1 running back, I see another very painful season in store for you.

I dont agree with your assesment of Michigans fundamental flaws and heres why.

You argue that the read-option offense is one that is detrimental to itself, by putting the most important player in harms way you take a big risk of losing that player. All that makes perfect sense really, I mean it is football so there is no doubt that at times guys are going to get hurt, Quarterbacks especially. In fact it probably doesnt matter what offense a QB runs, any time that a quarterback is back to throw the team is risking its most valuable player. So you are right that Rodriguez is risking injury to his most important playmaker but I dont believe that it is because of the style of offense that is being run. No matter what team and no matter what offense football is a physical game, one in which every player is subject to injury on every play and it is unreasonable to think that one offense is better than the other because of a supposed connection to more injuries. Give me some kind of data that supports the claim and I will accept your hypothesis, until then your full of shit.

The only other thing I would like to say is that I believe it is time that we all put to rest the notion that the B10 is a power conference anymore. It has been a good 15+ years since the B10 has been a bruising conference, the roots of the B10 still exist but the core of the conference is finess and speed. Northwestern runs a spread, Purdue runs a spread, Illinois also runs a spread, Indiana runs a spread offense, Minnesota runs a variation of a spread offense, Michigan State had more success with a running QB last year than they did with theyre more traditional passing QB, Penn State made 2 straight new years day bowls while riding on the back of a running QB in a spread offense, finally Ohio State a team that designed a variation of West Virginias spread offense to accomodate Troy Smiths talents and is now utilizing another tactic of the spread option to maximize the potential of Terrelle Pryor. Of course the tradition of the B10 will always be about smash mouth football the reality is that the B10 hasnt been smash mouth for quite some time and it doesnt look like thats going to change any time soon.

[Sten Carlson]

If you guys come out of the gate with Forcier as your #1 running back, I see another very painful season in store for you.

I agree with this statement. If Texas is a model, you can go a long way with your QB being the lead back, but sooner or later (2x in Colt's career) you're going to get hurt). The good news is for Michigan and RR is that he, unlike Texas of late (who is going back to a proset btw) hasn't had a RB since Cedric Benson to really grind out yards) Michigan has a stable of talented backs to rival any time in Michigan history (I think).

I think no matter the QB we're going to see a lot of power run from the spread of course, and a lot of option. If Tate is there, they're going to use the option to dish off to Fitz, or even Denard, but also the play-action option pass. When Tate learns the step that Colt had where he looked like he was running, but steps back and passes, he could be lethal. We'll see.

I just like having a lot of good talent to choose from and see who rises to the top -- they'll be a Michigan Man there to pick up the banner and carry it forward, no doubt about that!

Go Blue!

[1OSUNUT]

BigHouse -

I think you missed the point a bit. People are aware that the Big Ten has a lot of spread teams and some are in fact finess - but the defenses are not. That is what is going to give Tate problems. You are 100% that many teams are running some form of the spread at times - but they are not running the spread option. That is the difference. The majority of the teams still use the tailback as the main source of running. The Buckeyes have designed running plays for TP - but he can take punishment better then Tate. Plus Tressel limits the contact TP gets.

When you run a spread option with a QB like Tate - your playing with fire. There is nothing finess about the defense Iowa, MSU, PSU and Ohio State will put on the field. Now your going to take Tate and run him along the line looking for a hole to run in or for a player to pitch to - I just don't think that is smart. EVERY highly ranked team that runs the spread option (exept Texas with VY) has lost their QB before the season has ended. Ohio State fans have been bitching about wanting to see TP run more - but Tressel knows what will happen if a QB runs to much. Tate is not built to take punishment - at least not Big Ten punishment. I predict that if RR runs Tate like he did last year - he will get injured again. He just does not have the frame to be a running QB.

[Gobluerebirth]

BigHouse -

I think you missed the point a bit. People are aware that the Big Ten has a lot of spread teams and some are in fact finess - but the defenses are not. That is what is going to give Tate problems. You are 100% that many teams are running some form of the spread at times - but they are not running the spread option. That is the difference. The majority of the teams still use the tailback as the main source of running. The Buckeyes have designed running plays for TP - but he can take punishment better then Tate. Plus Tressel limits the contact TP gets.

When you run a spread option with a QB like Tate - your playing with fire. There is nothing finess about the defense Iowa, MSU, PSU and Ohio State will put on the field. Now your going to take Tate and run him along the line looking for a hole to run in or for a player to pitch to - I just don't think that is smart. EVERY highly ranked team that runs the spread option (exept Texas with VY) has lost their QB before the season has ended. Ohio State fans have been bitching about wanting to see TP run more - but Tressel knows what will happen if a QB runs to much. Tate is not built to take punishment - at least not Big Ten punishment. I predict that if RR runs Tate like he did last year - he will get injured again. He just does not have the frame to be a running QB.

This thread about Tate of Pryor? Tate? Ok. I don't have time to look it up, need to work on a history research paper. But, insted on here reading trolling. The state about pro style vs. spread system with the qb getting injured? Thanks to however looks it up. I think Tate will run less. He has more experience so we can see him and DRob throw more. GO BLUE!

[Revelli]

First off, Norcal: I think you just argued that you don't think the spread will work in the big10 (again), correct? So your entire first post in this thread is nothing more or less than PUFFEREY!

Second, Nut: I think you made some good points here (finally) but I disagree in one major way. The reason Tate had so many rushing yards was because of plays breaking down, and then he made some (not all) bad decisions to run a lot. I chalk that up to freshman mistakes. When plays break down, I don't think he will run as much, but will also look to pass to get out of trouble. Tate and RR had arguing matches on the sideline last year about this very thing; when to throw, when to run, when to fall on the ball, etc... I would also say that from what I've been hearing look for D. Rob to have a much better passing year this year, and that if he doesn't, he will be tried at other positions because you just can't leave a guy with that much speed on the sidelines.

I count myself with the tribe of folks on here who think that, pending no major injuries to TF or DRob, Gardner redshirts.

[bighousemike84]

but they are not running the spread option.

Really? Ok.

Ohio State


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkjh2H0eBWE


I dont know man, it looks a lot like UOS is running the read option. Its funny,there was all this talk about preparing Pryor for the NFL with a more pro style offense in Columbus, now we are approaching his thrid season and the buckeye coaches wised up and are using him the way he would have been used at Michigan.

[1OSUNUT]

The spread or read option is not the main offense sceme at Ohio State. Do they have a play here or there that they can run sure - they also line up in 4 and 5 wide set ups. That does not make them Texas Tech all of a sudden - does it.

I don't want to turn this into what Ohio State does or does not do. The question was if Gardner should red shirt and I think he should. I just don't know if he will be able to if Tate takes the kind of punishment he did last year. Robinson is a nice change of pace QB - but if he is asked to lead the team full time, expect another bad season. I think teams would be drooling to face Robinson for a full game - IMO.

[bighousemike84]

The spread or read option is not the main offense sceme at Ohio State. Do they have a play here or there that they can run sure - they also line up in 4 and 5 wide set ups. That does not make them Texas Tech all of a sudden - does it.

I don't want to turn this into what Ohio State does or does not do. The question was if Gardner should red shirt and I think he should. I just don't know if he will be able to if Tate takes the kind of punishment he did last year. Robinson is a nice change of pace QB - but if he is asked to lead the team full time, expect another bad season. I think teams would be drooling to face Robinson for a full game - IMO.

Yes, as I said in my first post on this thread Gardner should and most likely will be redshirted in 2010.

Nut,
The spread offense or read otpion is most certainly theyre main offensive scheme. I gave you video of Ohio State running different sets off a read option base offense so what can you provide me to sway me to your opinion?

[amazinblue]

Robinson is a nice change of pace QB - but if he is asked to lead the team full time, expect another bad season. I think teams would be drooling to face Robinson for a full game - IMO.

Nut,

Just to make sure - you think that teams "would be drooling" to play against DR as QB.

I don't know if I would agree with that. DR demonstrated that his wheels work awfully well last season - and, if his arm / accuracy have progressed as much as some are saying - then, I believe DR will be a more potent weapon than other options. I believe that last season - TF had a few things going for him - and the biggest difference between TF and DR last season was time - TF enrolled early - got a lot of reps in Spring practice - and knew more of the playbook than DR who joined the team going into Summer camp / pre-season. That amount of exposure to the offense and the reps he received was a huge advantage to TF last year.

However, a year's gone by - and, there's been time for both players to become more familiar with the playbook and lead the offense. I believe that TF had a more accurate arm than DR - DR has better speed running than TF - and both made freshman type mistakes during the season. As far as "who has developed more since November" - I cannot say - and, I'm guessing that the majority of the comments would be based on uninformed speculation.

If DR demonstrates that his arm is "80% of TF's" - then RR will have an interesting decision to make.

[Sten Carlson]

He was the leading RB by a significant margin. No wonder he ended up playing hurt.

A couple of things NorCal...

First, if I am not mistaken, in College football sacks are counted against the team and the QB's rushing totals. As such, if Tate dropped back to pass, and was sacked, it was counted as a rushing attempt. 119 - 96 is hardly "significant" and looks much less so given the way college football complies stats.

Secondly, Tate wasn't hurt by "contact" as you guys are claiming he was. He was hurt while leaping over the goal line to win the game for Michigan -- he jammed his right shoulder into the turf and sprained his AC joint. From there on out, he was not the same passer, and certainly not the same runner that he was in the beginning of the season. After he was hurt, we didn't see much more of this: Tate's TD run vs. ND (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gDv0HMTJEY&feature=related)

Here's the clip of the play on which he was injured: Tate's TD run vs. Indiana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYTgNN_42A)

[NorCal Buckeye]

A couple of things NorCal...

First, if I am not mistaken, in College football sacks are counted against the team and the QB's rushing totals. As such, if Tate dropped back to pass, and was sacked, it was counted as a rushing attempt. 119 - 96 is hardly "significant" and looks much less so given the way college football complies stats.

Secondly, Tate wasn't hurt by "contact" as you guys are claiming he was. He was hurt while leaping over the goal line to win the game for Michigan -- he jammed his right shoulder into the turf and sprained his AC joint. From there on out, he was not the same passer, and certainly not the same runner that he was in the beginning of the season. After he was hurt, we didn't see much more of this: Tate's TD run vs. ND (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gDv0HMTJEY&feature=related)

Here's the clip of the play on which he was injured: Tate's TD run vs. Indiana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXYTgNN_42A)

LOL, maybe I'm missing something here, but wasn't he "running" the ball when he made that dive? Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have a real RB making that dive? LOL, you guys crack me up.

[tpilews]

LOL, maybe I'm missing something here, but wasn't he "running" the ball when he made that dive? Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have a real RB making that dive? LOL, you guys crack me up.

Yeah, I think what you are missing is that you guys are saying that Big Ten defenses will hurt Tate, like they did last year. But, they didn't hurt him last year; the ground did.

[cartyboi]

Tate showed that when healthy, he is shifty enough to avoid the big hit.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gDv0HMTJEY

[NorCal Buckeye]

I dont agree with your assesment of Michigans fundamental flaws and heres why.

You argue that the read-option offense is one that is detrimental to itself, by putting the most important player in harms way you take a big risk of losing that player. All that makes perfect sense really, I mean it is football so there is no doubt that at times guys are going to get hurt, Quarterbacks especially. In fact it probably doesnt matter what offense a QB runs, any time that a quarterback is back to throw the team is risking its most valuable player. So you are right that Rodriguez is risking injury to his most important playmaker but I dont believe that it is because of the style of offense that is being run. No matter what team and no matter what offense football is a physical game, one in which every player is subject to injury on every play and it is unreasonable to think that one offense is better than the other because of a supposed connection to more injuries. Give me some kind of data that supports the claim and I will accept your hypothesis, until then your full of shit.

The only other thing I would like to say is that I believe it is time that we all put to rest the notion that the B10 is a power conference anymore. It has been a good 15+ years since the B10 has been a bruising conference, the roots of the B10 still exist but the core of the conference is finess and speed. Northwestern runs a spread, Purdue runs a spread, Illinois also runs a spread, Indiana runs a spread offense, Minnesota runs a variation of a spread offense, Michigan State had more success with a running QB last year than they did with theyre more traditional passing QB, Penn State made 2 straight new years day bowls while riding on the back of a running QB in a spread offense, finally Ohio State a team that designed a variation of West Virginias spread offense to accomodate Troy Smiths talents and is now utilizing another tactic of the spread option to maximize the potential of Terrelle Pryor. Of course the tradition of the B10 will always be about smash mouth football the reality is that the B10 hasnt been smash mouth for quite some time and it doesnt look like thats going to change any time soon.

Let history be your teacher on this issue.

Rodriguez's best QB and his best team was Pat White and WVU in 2007. They lost two games that year, USF and Pitt. Both games White got injured. Pat White is an unusually gifted athletic football player. But even he didn't make it unscathed, playing in the Big Easy. Those two losses cost Rodriguez and WVU the best shot they would ever have at a NC.

If you think Forcier, Robinson, and now this Gardner kid are going to run scot free through B10 elite defenses and carry you to some promised land, you're in for more rude awakenings. Unless Rodriguez comes in out of the rain and realizes that his QBs are not going to survive the season running the ball with regularity against the best and better defenses the B10 has to offer. Didn't the past bowl season show you guys anything? Oregon, Georgia Tech, Miami, and LSU were all excellent running teams that ran into brick walls against the best B10 teams.

He better keep Forcier in the pocket and utilize those good receivers you have, if you want to have a winning season. If he doesn't then expect QB injuries, and Gardner being thrown into the furnace too this year.

[tpilews]

Norcal, all of your talking about dual-threat qbs being more prone to injury is nothing but speculation. In fact, I've seen statistics compiled that show that pro-set qbs are more prone to injury. Most of the time a QB is running the ball, they hardly ever take a direct shot. Honestly, I can't remember Tate or Denard ever getting popped on a run last year. On the flip side, pro-set QBs often get hit while standing in the pocket. They'll get a linemen rolled up on their ankle, etc... I believe the stats were on mgoblog; I'll look for them and post it.

[tpilews]

Here it is...

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/busting-myth-option-qb-fragility?destination=node%2F18255

Interesting that pure running QBs are more susceptible to injury, but that the more immobile you are, the more serious the injury and the more time you miss.

[NorCal Buckeye]

Here it is...

http://mgoblog.com/diaries/busting-myth-option-qb-fragility?destination=node%2F18255

Interesting that pure running QBs are more susceptible to injury, but that the more immobile you are, the more serious the injury and the more time you miss.

LOL, that's right. Just ask Daryl Clark from PSU how he felt being a running QB after getting concussed at Ohio Stadium. Why do you think JoePa kept him in the pocket this past year? Or even ask Vince Young what it was like playing OSU as a running QB. He was quoted as saying that was the toughest game he ever played, OSU defense was even tougher than USC's.

It's OK, nobody can reason with you guys. One of the most fundamental concepts of football, protect the quarterback, is thrown out the window. What position did Rodriguez play? LB, or DB? LOL!

[1OSUNUT]

If you don't think a DB or LB does not amp up to lay a lick on a running QB - your crazy. Sure a QB in the pocket can get blasted - but that is normally because a lineman got beat - and the QB should be looking for that. When your a running QB your going to take big hits on a regular basis. This years NC game is a perfect example- Colt McCoy got injured running the ball and it may have cost Texas the championship. Vince Young is the only running QB that I can remember that made it all the way through a season without a major injury. Dixon and White both got injured during the season when their teams were heading toward a NC berth. You guys can spin it anyway you want - but running QB's will get hurt. The chances of Tate being 100% come the Buckeye game this year is slim to none. It's bad enough a pocket QB gets hit - why would you want to expose the QB to even more hits by having him run IMO. You would think you would want to protect the most important player on the team - not expose him. You guys said when RR was hired that he would bring in a high risk - high reward offense, and having Tate run is without a doubt high risk. If Tate goes down early in the season the Wolverines will not win 5 games.

[bighousemike84]

Heres your pocket passers for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4J4s2Z0xMY&feature=PlayList&p=60EC4BD0B4B6FF96&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=60

Heres another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1iVRRu6w0
Brutal reverse angle

Heres my personal favorite
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_krxbm1e3Lp1qa7cj8o1_500.jpg

[1OSUNUT]

Let me guess you want photos of McCoy, Dixon, White and others getting hurt. What do those photos prove ? 90% of the QB are pocket passers - so more of them are going to get injured. There would be a lot more QB injuries if ALL the QB's ran - like RR's do. That is why a QB slides before he gets hit. While your looking for video - look for Andy Katzenmoyer's hit on the Missouri QB. The guy still thinks he is Batman.

[amazinblue]

I liked that video of Herbie... I also thought that was a pretty good pass he threw. TP's motion reminds me a lot of Herbie and illustrates the progress he's made.

[sbblue32]

"Herbstreit throws a balloon down field"

You gotta love Keith Jackson

[NorCal Buckeye]

Heres your pocket passers for you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4J4s2Z0xMY&feature=PlayList&p=60EC4BD0B4B6FF96&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=60

Heres another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1iVRRu6w0
Brutal reverse angle

Heres my personal favorite
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_krxbm1e3Lp1qa7cj8o1_500.jpg

Payback is a mofo...Herbstreit now calls the games. And he screwed up the Les Miles hire for you. I love how he manages to keep a straight face whenever he talks about UM. Way to go, Herbie He who laughs last, laughs best.

[tpilews]

Let me guess you want photos of McCoy, Dixon, White and others getting hurt. What do those photos prove ? 90% of the QB are pocket passers - so more of them are going to get injured. There would be a lot more QB injuries if ALL the QB's ran - like RR's do. That is why a QB slides before he gets hit. While your looking for video - look for Andy Katzenmoyer's hit on the Missouri QB. The guy still thinks he is Batman.


If you even glanced at the link I provided, you wouldn't have said such a stupid statement. Well, maybe you still would have. However, the link proves that QB injuries are just as likely for pocket passers as they are for running QBs. Not sure how anyone can refute facts.

[tpilews]

LOL, that's right. Just ask Daryl Clark from PSU how he felt being a running QB after getting concussed at Ohio Stadium. Why do you think JoePa kept him in the pocket this past year? Or even ask Vince Young what it was like playing OSU as a running QB. He was quoted as saying that was the toughest game he ever played, OSU defense was even tougher than USC's.

It's OK, nobody can reason with you guys. One of the most fundamental concepts of football, protect the quarterback, is thrown out the window. What position did Rodriguez play? LB, or DB? LOL!

What does anything you said have to do with what I said, or the stats I provided. I didn't say anything about Tuos. Nobody can reason with you guys. HAHAHA. I just provided you with facts to disprove what you were saying, yet I'm the one being unreasonable? That's laughable.

[tpilews]

If you don't think a DB or LB does not amp up to lay a lick on a running QB - your crazy. Sure a QB in the pocket can get blasted - but that is normally because a lineman got beat - and the QB should be looking for that. When your a running QB your going to take big hits on a regular basis. This years NC game is a perfect example- Colt McCoy got injured running the ball and it may have cost Texas the championship. Vince Young is the only running QB that I can remember that made it all the way through a season without a major injury. Dixon and White both got injured during the season when their teams were heading toward a NC berth. You guys can spin it anyway you want - but running QB's will get hurt. The chances of Tate being 100% come the Buckeye game this year is slim to none. It's bad enough a pocket QB gets hit - why would you want to expose the QB to even more hits by having him run IMO. You would think you would want to protect the most important player on the team - not expose him. You guys said when RR was hired that he would bring in a high risk - high reward offense, and having Tate run is without a doubt high risk. If Tate goes down early in the season the Wolverines will not win 5 games.

I'm not spinning anything. Facts/Stats are not spin. There are just as many examples of pro-set QBs getting injured as there are for dual-threat. UW had three QBs go down in the same season a couple years ago. How about the weeks that Tom Brady went down, didn't three other starters go out that week? Yeah, it's NFL, but QB injuries happen all the time.

[amazinblue]

Payback is a mofo...Herbstreit now calls the games. And he screwed up the Les Miles hire for you. I love how he manages to keep a straight face whenever he talks about UM. Way to go, Herbie He who laughs last, laughs best.

NorCal,

Are you implying that Herbstreit goes out of his way to bring harm to the University of Michigan?

[NorCal Buckeye]

What does anything you said have to do with what I said, or the stats I provided. I didn't say anything about Tuos. Nobody can reason with you guys. HAHAHA. I just provided you with facts to disprove what you were saying, yet I'm the one being unreasonable? That's laughable.

Do you call that silly link proof, of anything? Even the Blue posters were laughing about what the guy was drinking when he was working on that project.

Let's stick to facts. Tebow this year almost lost his career with a concussion. McCoy costs Texas shot at NC trying to run the ball. Daryll Clark concussed at OSU last year. Pat White injuries costs WVU NC title shot. Dennis Dixon injury knocks OR out of NC shot. Tate Forcier gets injured last year just diving to the ground. It's an age old idiom in football, to those who know what they are doing, that you do not place your most vital player in harms way needlessly. Protect the quarterback has been the name of the game since the game was named.

The point of this thread was whether or not Gardner would be red-shirted. I predict not, because one or both of the quarterbacks ahead of him are very likely to be injured running Rodriguez's scheme. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him starting by the end of the year, actually. Forcier and/or Robinson will be hurt, or Rodriguez will bench them as scapegoats for the overall failure of the offense. I see a tough year ahead for you guys, and I'm not trying to troll saying it.

[tpilews]

Do you call that silly link proof, of anything? Even the Blue posters were laughing about what the guy was drinking when he was working on that project.

Let's stick to facts. Tebow this year almost lost his career with a concussion. McCoy costs Texas shot at NC trying to run the ball. Daryll Clark concussed at OSU last year. Pat White injuries costs WVU NC title shot. Dennis Dixon injury knocks OR out of NC shot. Tate Forcier gets injured last year just diving to the ground. It's an age old idiom in football, to those who know what they are doing, that you do not place your most vital player in harms way needlessly. Protect the quarterback has been the name of the game since the game was named.

The point of this thread was whether or not Gardner would be red-shirted. I predict not, because one or both of the quarterbacks ahead of him are very likely to be injured running Rodriguez's scheme. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him starting by the end of the year, actually. Forcier and/or Robinson will be hurt, or Rodriguez will bench them as scapegoats for the overall failure of the offense. I see a tough year ahead for you guys, and I'm not trying to troll saying it.

And Mallet, and Henne, and Gutierrez before Henne, and Navarre before him, and Henson before him, and so on....

[Swoosh]

All QB's in any system can get hurt. That's all you Trolls got?:)

IMO RR system is better, because they are on the move or getting rid of the ball quickly. Anyone know how much weight TF and DR have put on since last year?

[Sten Carlson]

The point of this thread was whether or not Gardner would be red-shirted. I predict not, because one or both of the quarterbacks ahead of him are very likely to be injured running Rodriguez's scheme. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him starting by the end of the year, actually. Forcier and/or Robinson will be hurt, or Rodriguez will bench them as scapegoats for the overall failure of the offense. I see a tough year ahead for you guys, and I'm not trying to troll saying it.

Thank goodness you're not trying to troll -- we wouldn't want that NorCal.

I see you're gazing into the Crystal Ball again...must be hanging out in Nut's Mom's basement huh?

While you're at it, maybe you could tell me when gold is going to crest the $2000/oz., who is going to win the World Cup, and whether or not Tiger is going to win the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach.

Are both QB's very likely to be injured, or will they 100% for certain be injured?

On a point that you made in an earlier post about the play on which Tate got hurt vs. IU last season. You said something like, "shouldn't the RB be carrying that ball?" Let me see if I can explain it to you. That play, from under center, is a misdirection play called a "naked bootleg", and has been a mainstay of college football for as long as it has been played. Harbaugh ran it to perfection, as has your wonder boy TP. Are you really suggesting that it is a bad call, despite the fact that EVERY team in the nation uses it? Really? Maybe Brandon should go back over the film of last season and find all the instances in which RR needlessly risked injuring his QB, and then FIRE HIM for such egregious risk-taking all in the pursuit of his own glory!

You're a moron!

[NorCal Buckeye]

Thank goodness you're not trying to troll -- we wouldn't want that NorCal.

I see you're gazing into the Crystal Ball again...must be hanging out in Nut's Mom's basement huh?

While you're at it, maybe you could tell me when gold is going to crest the $2000/oz., who is going to win the World Cup, and whether or not Tiger is going to win the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach.

Are both QB's very likely to be injured, or will they 100% for certain be injured?

On a point that you made in an earlier post about the play on which Tate got hurt vs. IU last season. You said something like, "shouldn't the RB be carrying that ball?" Let me see if I can explain it to you. That play, from under center, is a misdirection play called a "naked bootleg", and has been a mainstay of college football for as long as it has been played. Harbaugh ran it to perfection, as has your wonder boy TP. Are you really suggesting that it is a bad call, despite the fact that EVERY team in the nation uses it? Really? Maybe Brandon should go back over the film of last season and find all the instances in which RR needlessly risked injuring his QB, and then FIRE HIM for such egregious risk-taking all in the pursuit of his own glory!

You're a moron!

Thanks for clarifying the facts for me there. The lad gets hurt running a standard play...injures his shoulder diving a few feet for a TD with no contact? Is he really that dainty and delicate? And you're going to send him rushing into the teeth of the B10s most lethal defenses this year with no adverse consequences to be expected? LOL, OK I'm the moron for thinking I better try to keep him behind as many big blockers as possible.

It's not a crystal ball, Sten, it's common sense. You don't run your QB into defensive players by design unless A.) he's indestructible, B.) the back ups are just as good,or better, or C.) you want to lose football games and get your ass fired.

Our quarterback is 6-6 and 230 lbs. Our coach has enough common sense not to run him into defenders with intent to maim and cripple unless it's absolutely necessary. Our guy trys to stand in the pocket and pitch like he's supposed to, or hands off to the guys that practice taking contact every play.

Your quarterback is 6-1 and 188 lbs. Your coach thinks running him into the B10 meat grinder is going to win games. Good luck, you're going to need lots of it this year. You heard it hear first, Gardner will be starting by the end of the year, no red shirt for him. And I wouldn't be surprised if Forcier ends up transferring and doing well somewhere else just like Threet did.

[Sten Carlson]

The lad gets hurt running a standard play...injures his shoulder diving a few feet for a TD with no contact? Is he really that dainty and delicate? And you're going to send him rushing into the teeth of the B10s most lethal defenses this year with no adverse consequences to be expected? LOL, OK I'm the moron for thinking I better try to keep him behind as many big blockers as possible.

Yep, you're the moron...thanks for admitting to us what we've all known for a long time!

If you watch the clip I posted, you'll see that Tate hurdled the defenders, and crashed to the turf landing on his head and shoulder. The AC joint is a very delicate joint, no amount of strength training can totally prevent injury if it is landed on wrong. Your "dainty and delicate" theory doesn't hold any water NorCal -- it's just one of those freak injuries that can happen when a player lands on their shoulder wrong.

You obviously watch Michigan football, so please tell me; how many times this past season did you see Tate get "lit up" by the fearsome lethal defenders you're gushing about? I didn't see many, if any. Again, the injury could just as easily have happened to Tebow, TP, or any of the bigger QBs in the nation. You exaggerate everything when you're in here. It's not as if RR is sending the QB into a mine field to get blown to bits, and its called FOOTBALL, a game in which QBs take hits. Whether they're running an option, or a proset, QBs are going to get hit, it's just part of the game.

The ONLY good thing that TP does is run the ball, NOBODY is worried when he passes. So what you're admitting to is the fact that JT has a 6-6 240lbs QB, that runs like the wind, and cannot be tackled by one guy, who throws like a weak girl, but JT IS SCARED TO RUN HIM! Every team that OSU faces says to their DC, "devise a scheme that will KEEP TP IN THE POCKET where he CANNOT HURT IS!" I am not saying that I want Tate running the ball 30+ times a game, and last season I think he tried to do too much many times (freshman), but I believe strongly that the threat of the QB running is an essential part of a great college offense, and has been so for 100+ years. It's only a very recent development of the QB being the immobile "pocket passer" type. Maybe Tate is too small to run that offense effectively, but the kid has the heart of a lion and showed that he is willing to give 110%, even while injured, for his team in an effort to win football games.

You're scared, you'd play scared, and you've shown us that you would coach scared -- COWARD!!!!

[The Michigan Man]

Thanks for clarifying the facts for me there. The lad gets hurt running a standard play...injures his shoulder diving a few feet for a TD with no contact? Is he really that dainty and delicate? And you're going to send him rushing into the teeth of the B10s most lethal defenses this year with no adverse consequences to be expected? LOL, OK I'm the moron for thinking I better try to keep him behind as many big blockers as possible.

It's not a crystal ball, Sten, it's common sense. You don't run your QB into defensive players by design unless A.) he's indestructible, B.) the back ups are just as good,or better, or C.) you want to lose football games and get your ass fired.

Our quarterback is 6-6 and 230 lbs. Our coach has enough common sense not to run him into defenders with intent to maim and cripple unless it's absolutely necessary. Our guy trys to stand in the pocket and pitch like he's supposed to, or hands off to the guys that practice taking contact every play.

Your quarterback is 6-1 and 188 lbs. Your coach thinks running him into the B10 meat grinder is going to win games. Good luck, you're going to need lots of it this year. You heard it hear first, Gardner will be starting by the end of the year, no red shirt for him. And I wouldn't be surprised if Forcier ends up transferring and doing well somewhere else just like Threet did.

So Tate getting hurt by falling wrong is the first time you've ever heard of an athlete getting injured without a tackle? And you claim to have been a sports fan for decades?

As you may or may not know, injuries are an unpredictable reality of sports. It isn't just bone-crushing hits that cause injuries. Just read the injury reports from spring practice, a lot of guys get injured without full contact. Pryor just had knee surgery - I don't recall a specific incident that caused it, he seems to glide out of bounds most of the time to avoid the hit, but maybe I missed it.

You are speculating that a QB may go down to injury as if it were a UM specific problem, and couldn't happen to any QB at any level. Sure, Tate got hurt, but how many games did he miss? A lot of the hits Tate took were due to decisions he made - he is a competitor, and refused to just get rid of the ball when he thought there was a chance to make a play. That is a freshman mentality that will change as he matures.

This year is completely different than last year, and one of the reasons is there is experience at the skill positions. Spin it whatever way you want, having true freshmen leading a team usually doesn't result in a lot of Ws at the end of the season. TP was able to do it, but he was plugged into a system that had been in place for years, surrounded by NFL caliber WRs and RBs. Not only was Forcier totally green, he was surrounded by other green players, who were all learning a new system together.

So go ahead and keep bashing RR like he has a loaded team of his players and just stunk as a coach, so that's why they lost. No one is buying it, including you, I don't care how relentlessly you try to sell it.

[NorCal Buckeye]

So Tate getting hurt by falling wrong is the first time you've ever heard of an athlete getting injured without a tackle? And you claim to have been a sports fan for decades?

As you may or may not know, injuries are an unpredictable reality of sports. It isn't just bone-crushing hits that cause injuries. Just read the injury reports from spring practice, a lot of guys get injured without full contact. Pryor just had knee surgery - I don't recall a specific incident that caused it, he seems to glide out of bounds most of the time to avoid the hit, but maybe I missed it.

You are speculating that a QB may go down to injury as if it were a UM specific problem, and couldn't happen to any QB at any level. Sure, Tate got hurt, but how many games did he miss? A lot of the hits Tate took were due to decisions he made - he is a competitor, and refused to just get rid of the ball when he thought there was a chance to make a play. That is a freshman mentality that will change as he matures.

This year is completely different than last year, and one of the reasons is there is experience at the skill positions. Spin it whatever way you want, having true freshmen leading a team usually doesn't result in a lot of Ws at the end of the season. TP was able to do it, but he was plugged into a system that had been in place for years, surrounded by NFL caliber WRs and RBs. Not only was Forcier totally green, he was surrounded by other green players, who were all learning a new system together.

So go ahead and keep bashing RR like he has a loaded team of his players and just stunk as a coach, so that's why they lost. No one is buying it, including you, I don't care how relentlessly you try to sell it.

This has got to be one of the most inane posts I've seen, today.

So just because any player can get hurt without contact that somehow justifies, at least in your mind, hanging your most vital player (quarterback) out to be lunch for linebackers?

Forcier is a good quarterback, and has potential. But being "rugged" is not a trait I would give him a pass on. Other qualities yes, but taking hit after hit from linebackers, no. So if he gets hurt, he gets benched. Someone else takes over (Robinson/Gardner), Forcier will not settle for being #2. I would predict he would transfer and go somewhere he could play. IMHO Gardner will not be able to red shirt, and may well be your starting QB by the end of the season. That will probably not be a good sign.

[Sten Carlson]

So just because any player can get hurt without contact that somehow justifies, at least in your mind, hanging your most vital player (quarterback) out to be lunch for linebackers?

But that's just it NorCal, it wasn't the linebackers that hurt Tate -- the lunch table might have been set for them, but they missed their chances all season long -- even while injured, those hungry LBs weren't able to injure him -- so your argument is the inanity in this thread. If Tate was rocked, a la McGuffie, and was getting concussed game in and game out, I'd agree with you. But that is not how it went down. You keep going on and on about the elite and dangerous defenses, but even given Tate diminutive size, light weight, and injury, they weren't able to knock him out of any games. I wonder what would have happened last season if he didn't get hurt on that play vs. IU.

The point is that Tate knows how to take a hit, he knows where the ground is in traffic, and showed that he was adept at avoiding solid contact -- now if we can just get him to stop fumbling the ball, we'll be o.k.

Furthermore, you're really showing your class and appreciation for the game by basically BEGGING that someone get hurt so that you can come in here and gloat and thump your chest. As much as I dislike OSU or ND, I'd never hope that someone get's hurt -- it's pathetic display of typical classless Buckeye crap!

[1OSUNUT]

If I'm not mistaken I thought Tate did suffer a concussion or two this year. I could be wrong but I think that was why Robinson finished the Iowa game - Tate was still woozy. I'm sure sombody will correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm almost sure he got his bell rung a few times last year.

[The Michigan Man]

This has got to be one of the most inane posts I've seen, today.

So just because any player can get hurt without contact that somehow justifies, at least in your mind, hanging your most vital player (quarterback) out to be lunch for linebackers?

Forcier is a good quarterback, and has potential. But being "rugged" is not a trait I would give him a pass on. Other qualities yes, but taking hit after hit from linebackers, no. So if he gets hurt, he gets benched. Someone else takes over (Robinson/Gardner), Forcier will not settle for being #2. I would predict he would transfer and go somewhere he could play. IMHO Gardner will not be able to red shirt, and may well be your starting QB by the end of the season. That will probably not be a good sign.

My bad, sometimes I forget that reading comprehension can never be assumed in this forum.

If you care to actually read my post you'll find where I stated that a lot of Forcier's problems with getting hit were due to his refusal to throw the ball away or run out of bounds in a lot of situations. He is competitive, and will put his body in harm's way to make a play, something he will stop doing with maturity (or spend a lot of time on the IR).

I did not say that Forcier was "rugged", he is a small guy - I said that he did not miss starts, despite taking some significant hits. I would label him resiliant.

If Forcier drops to #2 this season, that's life in college football. Tate had quite a roller coaster ride last season, with spectacaular last second wins along with terrible blunder-filled losses - most of the time he was playing from behind because the defense could not stop anyone. That is when he felt he had to carry the team on his shoulders and force plays.

Sure, he may transfer if he doesn't start - that's his choice. Denard and Devon are more physically suited for what RR is trying to create on offense - but Tate has a lot of intangibles that will keep him in the mix as a starter.

As far as speculating that if Gardner wins the starting job it is not a good sign: was the fact that Pryor took over for Boeckman his freshman year a bad sign?

[tpilews]

If I'm not mistaken I thought Tate did suffer a concussion or two this year. I could be wrong but I think that was why Robinson finished the Iowa game - Tate was still woozy. I'm sure sombody will correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm almost sure he got his bell rung a few times last year.

From what I remember, Tate did not have any concussions last year. I think the reason Tate was pulled was for bad play and even worse reaction to that play. Also, I can't remember any time last year when Tate got hit hard, not even on a blitz from the blind side.

[amazinblue]

And I wouldn't be surprised if Forcier ends up transferring and doing well somewhere else just like Threet did.

NorCal,

Just to be clear - I was a supporter of Threet and the effort he displayed while QB at Michigan - and, I wish him well in all his endeavors and life. However, I find it interesting that you say above - "doing well somewhere else just like Threet did." My question is - what are Threet's game stats since he left? How many TD's has he thrown for? How many rushing yards has he picked up?

If my figures are correct - Threet's not yet appeared in a single game for ASU.

Again - I wish him well - and hope he puts up Heisman like numbers. And, one other thing - I DO hope he plays great. And, perhaps he also learned something while playing under RR and learning the spread option that he'll be able to apply at ASU.

[Sten Carlson]

If I'm not mistaken I thought Tate did suffer a concussion or two this year. I could be wrong but I think that was why Robinson finished the Iowa game - Tate was still woozy. I'm sure sombody will correct me if I'm wrong - but I'm almost sure he got his bell rung a few times last year.

You're correct, I think. It was reported after the Iowa game that he suffered a "mild" concussion. The report, if I remember correctly, said that nobody was aware that he had been hit that hard, but that he wasn't playing well and seemed confused. That was the only game in which I recall anything close to having his "bell rung".

Personally, I was very impressed with his toughness given the fact that he isn't very big. As I said, he seemed to be able to avoid the big hits, and knew where the ground, the sidelines, and the first-down marker were pretty much at all times. I heard from people inside the AD that his fumbling issues came from the injury to his AC joint, which has a tendency to make the hands weak and causes a loss of sensation. Although I've been arguing with NorCal on the subject, I would like to see Tate (if he is indeed the starter) run only when the defense is over pursuing the RB's or when then play breaks down and he has to scramble. The TD run vs. ND is a perfect example of that -- the entire ND defense was blitzing, and he only had to beat the one guy in the back field. I think we have enough depth at RB this season to allow us to run the ball with the RB's and sprinkle in the QB runs, not the other way around. I know everyone goes on and on about how RR "wants to run the QB..." but I think he wants to run the ball, and will give it to whomever he feels is going to consistently gain the most yardage per play. Last season, I think the RB play was so inconsistent, due to injuries and turnovers, that he didn't have much of a choice but to run Tate rather frequently.

I'd like to see Tate and Denard in a formation together, a little roll out and a pitch to DR, have him run a few times, then when the defense bites have him step back and pass. Then, fake the pitch and have Tate step back and pass. It could be amazing to watch, especially if early in the season DR is able to get off a few times and shows his burners -- DC's will have a heck of a time trying to defend that kind of speed.

Go Blue!

[tpilews]

Well, back to the topic at hand. The spring game gave us a first look at what each QB could do. I'll watch the replay tonight and draw my own conclusions, but here is what the guys at mgoblog had to say in regards to Gardner:


Meanwhile, Devin Gardner looked raw as hell, fumbling snaps, scrambling into trouble, and reverting to that ugly shotput motion whenever he was forced to throw on the run. He looked like a freshman, which is okay because he is a freshman. However, the torrent of spring hype that suggested Gardner would probably not redshirt because he would be Michigan's best quarterback by UConn… eh, not so much. Maybe it was just a bad day. Even if it was an off day, Robinson showed enough to relegate Gardner to the bench for the first couple games and hopefully his whole freshman year.

[bighousemike84]

Well, back to the topic at hand. The spring game gave us a first look at what each QB could do. I'll watch the replay tonight and draw my own conclusions, but here is what the guys at mgoblog had to say in regards to Gardner:

Yeah this kid definitely needs to be redshirted.

[Gobluerebirth]

He will Redshirt if we stay injury free. Big IF.

[rickyleach]

after seeing gardner saturday ,he needs to redshirt , the boy has talent but needs to sit

[tpilews]

Your quarterback is 6-1 and 188 lbs. Your coach thinks running him into the B10 meat grinder is going to win games. Good luck, you're going to need lots of it this year. You heard it hear first, Gardner will be starting by the end of the year, no red shirt for him. And I wouldn't be surprised if Forcier ends up transferring and doing well somewhere else just like Threet did.

Just thought I'd give you an update on how well Threet is playing at ASU. He was 9 for 27 with 3 picks in his spring game. YAAAAAHHHHH for 33% completion percentage.

[RADRACING]

remember how tiny Colt McCoy was back when he first started, I would love to see Tate hit the weight room and bulk up 20 or so pounds that would help a lot. I really think Robinson pulled a TP as being a little lost at first and now seems to be getting the grasp of what is going on. Both passing is 100% better, both seem decisive now. I really think this is DR's team for now from the greatness I saw in the spring game and his grasp of knowing a split second better than the other QB's on the team, exactly what he is doing.
I think all three QB's on UM right now are better than the QB's I saw at Penn State this weekend. - It will be interesting to see the race between the two schools who develops their QB first, right now UM is ahead in every way, as far as I can tell.

The most interesting situation in the conference is at Iowa at QB, I really think Stanzie is the second best QB on the team, he also makes alot of blunders as far as turnovers. I think he will start but i think the team was actually a better team with him out late last year.

[amazinblue]

... I would love to see Tate hit the weight room and bulk up 20 or so pounds that would help a lot.

Rad,

I believe that TF is listed on the Spring Roster as 6'1" tall and 194 lbs. I believe he's put on more than 20 lbs. OR, are you suggesting he add ANOTHER 20 lbs?

[Blue In Ohio]

Just thought I'd give you an update on how well Threet is playing at ASU. He was 9 for 27 with 3 picks in his spring game. YAAAAAHHHHH for 33% completion percentage.

Probably still sore from the beating he took in our offense. Not sure if he will ever be the same after that. A guy like that just isn't made to run the football like that although that was a great run he had against Wisconsin.

[rickyleach]

Rad,

I believe that TF is listed on the Spring Roster as 6'1" tall and 194 lbs. I believe he's put on more than 20 lbs. OR, are you suggesting he add ANOTHER 20 lbs?

i know that is what he is listed at , but i saw him up close and without pads on the weekend of the spring game , and if that is his wieght ,then it must be from his waist down ,because his arms are like pencils. he is small...