Lloyd Nostalgia

[MoellerLover]

On the Big 10 Network they aired the 2005 Michigan vs. Wisconsin game which reminded me that the Lloyd days were not exactly what I had remembered them as. We were loaded with defensive and offensive studs and aside form a flee flicker it was the kind of play calling that would get you destroyed on online video game play.

The offense put up about 14 points in a loss and featured Henne looking to pass to Avant 90 percent of the game. It was really awful to watch and made Rich's bubble screens look like the most innovative thing on the planet.

It really hammered home that such conservative football would of probably still got us by the teams we usually beat still but would of proved dismal like it usually did against the elite. I know this is the pro RR philosophy in a nut shell but I thought watching the game really put things back in perspective for me.

[Vested_Interest]

2005, eh?

Funny, how such a low point for Carr -- that 7-5 mark, including losses to Ohio State (in AA) and Nebraska in the bowl game, which was due in no small part to a series of key injuries that year -- seems to be the mark that many feel the Rodmeister has to reach this season ...just to save his job! I guess there's some truth in the crusty ol' maxim that one's perspective is everything.

How the expectations have fallen!

[GoBlue21]

2005, eh?

Funny, how such a low point for Carr -- that 7-5 mark, including losses to Ohio State (in AA) and Nebraska in the bowl game, which was due in no small part to a series of key injuries that year -- seems to be the mark that many feel the Rodmeister has to reach this season ...just to save his job! I guess there's some truth in the crusty ol' maxim that one's perspective is everything.

How the expectations have fallen!

Vest,

It wasn't just 2005. There were NUMEROUS occasions when Michigan would have a lead at half but some how let that slip because the offense got conservative. Moeller was only picking out one game because that just so happened to be the game he was watching. Nobody hates Lloyd, he was a great man, nobody is denying that. But, his one flaw in my mind was he was just too damn conservative. After watching the Capital One Bowl vs. Florida, it was plain to see that he DID NOT use the talent to their full ability. That team was offensively LOADED but wanted to stick to zone-read runs FAR TOO OFTEN. Yeah, they had injuries in 2005 BUT he STILL didn't open the playbook. Watch the 2004 Michigan vs. Michigan St. game when Henne was a freshman. Michigan hardly ever had trouble moving the ball when they were down, why not run that offense ALL GAME.

RichRod has struggled to win games, no denying that, but he runs the same offense nobody what. He's not going to go conservative when he gets a lead and I REALLY LIKE THAT. Don't LET the team back in the game when you get a lead, Michigan's defense over the years just wasn't good enough to hold on other than 1997. I WANT Michigan to put teams away when they get a lead. That gets the guys behind the starters EXPERIENCE which Michigan has lacked over the past few years. Get a big lead and get the backups in. Run the same offense and get these young men some game experience. That's only going to help the depth chart which Michigan has lacked for a number of years.

I'm not blaming everything on Lloyd and i'm not blaming everything on RichRod, that both have a hand in this mess. I do have faith in RichRod and I hope the athletic office feels the same way. If RichRod is canned after this year or next, I'll support whatever coach they bring in. I'm a Michigan fan, not a coaches fan!

[FLex500]

2005, eh?

Funny, how such a low point for Carr -- that 7-5 mark, including losses to Ohio State (in AA) and Nebraska in the bowl game, which was due in no small part to a series of key injuries that year -- seems to be the mark that many feel the Rodmeister has to reach this season ...just to save his job! I guess there's some truth in the crusty ol' maxim that one's perspective is everything.

How the expectations have fallen!


to be honest when lloyd was the coach his last 4-6 years I sort of thought anything over 7-5 was a "bonus". They were LOADED with talent every year but always underperformed. The exception was 2006 but I thoroughly beleive they just "out talented" teams and won in spite of coaching...not because of it.

I think the difference is with Lloyd is coach UM fans knew 100%, without a doubt....I'm not talking change here I'm talking we kne 100% as sure as we all will die and pay taxes there woudl not be another national championship with lloyd as coach.

Sure things have not been good the last two years and that is the chance you take when you lose a consistant coach like lloyd who every year will have you 7-5 to 9-3 on a good year but you will NEVER be elite. When you make a change and take a chance you risk some bad years happening. When you take a chance, which is what you do anytime you change coaches that doesn't mean only good things happen right away...



and as far as expectations the ONLY reason they have been lower the past couple years is talent...when you compare some of the 7-5/8-4 teams lloyd had talent to the teams the past two years it is like comparing alabama to miami of ohio.

[amazinblue]

... After watching the Capital One Bowl vs. Florida, it was plain to see that he DID NOT use the talent to their full ability.

RichRod has struggled to win games, no denying that, but he runs the same offense nobody what. He's not going to go conservative when he gets a lead and I REALLY LIKE THAT. Don't LET the team back in the game when you get a lead, Michigan's defense over the years just wasn't good enough to hold on other than 1997. I WANT Michigan to put teams away when they get a lead. That gets the guys behind the starters EXPERIENCE which Michigan has lacked over the past few years. Get a big lead and get the backups in. Run the same offense and get these young men some game experience. That's only going to help the depth chart which Michigan has lacked for a number of years.

GB21,

I completely agree - and, I've been saying this for a while - get those leads of 17+ points and then begin playing the two deep and three deep.

I think RR has a sense of balance - there's no need to win games by 60 points. But, if these guys are working hard - and the first team is scoring a lot, then introduce the second team - they've earned the right through S&C and practice to get game experience. I do expect RR to press the pedal to the metal for a while.

I don't know how many 17+ point leads we'll have this year, but I'm pretty sure we'll have several next season and the years after that. I pick 17 as the minimum lead because mistakes do happen - and, if two mistakes are committed that result in quick TD's and two point conversions - you'll still cling to a one point lead.

[MaizenBlue]

I can not get over the fact that I will ALWAYS be grateful to Lloyd for the victory over Florida in the 2008 Citrus Bowl. Surrounded by idiot Florida fans at BW3's (which is amazing considering I live in Toledo) I got to return the abuse I was getting all game when the final bell rang. It was Awesome!

[Motown74]

I miss the 78% winning percentage and bowl games. Never thought I would see the day Michigan's win percentage as low as it has been.

[bluefan]

I don't miss getting embarrassed by FCS schools. I don't miss giving up late leads. I don't miss getting owned on the West Coast. I don't miss Rose Bowl embarrassments. I don't miss off tackle on 1st,2nd, and 3rd down. I don't miss opening up the playbook after we're screwed. I don't miss squeaking by MAC schools.

[primetime101]

I dont miss underachieving

[blueisbetterthanred]

I dont miss run left, run left, pass.

[bighousemike84]

If there is any reason for me to be nostalgic about Lloyd Carr it would be that I miss his curmudginly attitude towards reporters in just about every situation. I loved that about the guy, it always made me smile when he just gave that look to the reporter asking the question, the look that tells you right away that hes got an answer for you but he cant say it in public. He was such a crotchity bastard when it came to the silly stuff that the media asks or does but I loved it.

[MoellerLover]

I'll always Love Lloyd for his personality and being a Michigan legend which is undeniable as he won a N.C. Especially as I was at the Capital One game (the last great Michigan win and the greatest sporting event I ever witnessed live. My father thought it was only second to the 1969 OSU win he saw when he was going to UofM) and they asked him how do you want to be remembered as a Michigan Man and he basically said "just a Michigan man, that's enough for me".

However, if the Appalachian State's were still occurring I'd be on this site still entitled "Sack Carr" and begging for another coach. I don't think the 2007 season could of offered any more proof that Lloyd needed to go. Being loaded with NFL talent and losing to App. St. but later beating the reigning N.C.'s was as much empirical evidence as possible that coaching was the issue. Better to be suffering horribly with the possibility of glorious revival then to be slowly drifting away into nothingness.

[Blue In Ohio]

That win over Florida sure was sweet. For weeks I heard on sporting news radio and rivals how Michigan had no chance and would be embarrassed. That was some of the finest qb play and offensive play calling I've ever seen out of any Michigan team. If not for the turnovers on the goal line the game was not even close. It was like Florida had no idea we had speed and a great qb who could get the ball to those great receivers. They thought they would just show up and Michigan would roll over. To me that victory meant more than most victories over OSU. It gave the south the slap in the face it needed when they continue to bash the big ten yet fail to look at the real facts and just how well the big ten does play them. Outside of OSU's dismal performance the rest of the conference does a fine job against them. Seeing the latest Michigan footage I really like the speed I see on the field. Plays develope quickly as both of our qb's are much better at running the offense. If the defense can just hold on this year and somehow get us to 8 wins it will open the floodgates to better recruits and Michigan will be headed back to prominence. Our offense will be very hard to stop this season.

[primetime101]

I dont miss run left, run left, pass.

you forgot the punt after the 3rd and 6 pass goes for 4 yards

[GoBlue21]

you forgot the punt after the 3rd and 6 pass goes for 4 yards

Or a fake punt in your own territory (see Michigan St.)...Haha

[amazinblue]

Or a fake punt in your own territory (see Michigan St.)...Haha

Does anyone think that mistake (the fake punt) by Mesko last season cost Michigan the MSU game?

[GoBlue21]

Does anyone think that mistake (the fake punt) by Mesko last season cost Michigan the MSU game?

I think there are KEY mistake(s) that can contribute to the outcome of the game but I dont think it was ALL Mesko's fault. How about the Michigan St. having the ball for the ENTIRE first quarter. It's kind of hard to put points on the board when the defense can't get a stop and get off the field. That was probably the longest first quarter drive I've EVER seen...6 plays 80 yards 10:02 T-O-P.

The T-O-P was 39:46-20:14 in favor of Sparty which isn't a HUGE factor in Michigan's hurry up offense but that first quarter was 12:09-2:51 in favor of Sparty so how is the offense supposed to get in rhythm when they were only on the field for less than 3 minutes???

[amazinblue]

GoBlue21,

The TOP you raise is very important - and, I don't mean to "throw Mesko under the bus". If anything, I believe there were some plays in games that could have or did impact the outcome. Michigan was solid in the first half of most games last year and in the losses, things broke down in the second half. I do believe that the number of mistakes - ball possession / control / turnovers - will all improve this season.

I don't expect to see many 9 minute 18 play drives in this offense - but, I do expect fewer turnovers with better decision making and execution across hte entire offense.

[GoBlue21]

GoBlue21,

The TOP you raise is very important - and, I don't mean to "throw Mesko under the bus". If anything, I believe there were some plays in games that could have or did impact the outcome. Michigan was solid in the first half of most games last year and in the losses, things broke down in the second half. I do believe that the number of mistakes - ball possession / control / turnovers - will all improve this season.

I don't expect to see many 9 minute 18 play drives in this offense - but, I do expect fewer turnovers with better decision making and execution across hte entire offense.

I know you weren't 'throwing Mesko under the bus'. Was it a bone-head decision, no doubt. As soon as he started running, I thought to myself "PLEASE STILL KICK IT" because there was NO CREASE but that's easy to say when you're watching it on TV and have angles that players don't have. Even if there was a crease, that's still a tough area to gamble. Mesko had a great career at Michigan and i can probably count his mistakes on one hand!

Even if Michigan isn't executing on offense and controlling the T-O-P, if they can count down turnovers alone; they will be in good shape. How many drive killers do Michigan have last year??? Wow, I mean, just read RichRod's interview with Albom. Here's an example...


R: Well that ... and we helped beat ourselves, too. The turnovers were ridiculous. We didn't give ourselves a chance. In the Ohio State game, we could've played well enough to win that one, but we had five interceptions. You don't give yourself a chance.

You aren't going to beat a team like tUOS with 5 turnovers, just not going to happen unless you CAUSE 4-5 turnovers yourself and Michigan's defense just isn't there yet!

[NCBLUE]

Funny how consistant 9-3 teams, 5 Big Ten Championships, 1 National Championship and winning record against the top 10 get's you nothing but contempt from a segment of your fan base.

Carr's coaching tenure was great in the first half and growing stale in his second half. I watched the Florida and Alabama wins recently and they were great victories for our program.

I wonder if after 12/13 years with RR if his overall record, record against oSU, # of Big Ten championships adn National Chmapionships will be better or worse than Carr's.

[amazinblue]

Funny how consistant 9-3 teams, 5 Big Ten Championships, 1 National Championship and winning record against the top 10 get's you nothing but contempt from a segment of your fan base.

Carr's coaching tenure was great in the first half and growing stale in his second half. I watched the Florida and Alabama wins recently and they were great victories for our program.

I wonder if after 12/13 years with RR if his overall record, record against oSU, # of Big Ten championships adn National Chmapionships will be better or worse than Carr's.

GoBlue21,

If you take the first two years won / loss record off the table (and possibly this year, if the team goes 7-5), I think that RR will stack up very favorably against Carr in the next 12 or 13 years. Bo's record the first 11 or 12 years was wicked good. RR's had to do a lot of things that other Michigan coaches did not have to do - and, I not only have faith in what he has done and is doing, but also the direction of the program, the work ethic of the players, and the type of football we'll see.

I'm proud of the effort these young men and their coaches put forth - and the record will represent their work if not this year then certainly next year.

[NCBLUE]

Mind you I am not calling for RR to be fired. I think he should be given time and judged by the product he puts on the field. He was not my first choice for coach but I give Martin credit for taking the chance.

While Lloyd was not a great coach he is not anywhere as horrible as many portray him to be.

By the way when making comparisons you cannot pick and choose which years to leave off.

Hopefully this season turns the corner for us.

Go Blue.

[Sten Carlson]

Funny how consistant 9-3 teams, 5 Big Ten Championships, 1 National Championship and winning record against the top 10 get's you nothing but contempt from a segment of your fan base.

Carr's coaching tenure was great in the first half and growing stale in his second half. I watched the Florida and Alabama wins recently and they were great victories for our program.

I wonder if after 12/13 years with RR if his overall record, record against oSU, # of Big Ten championships adn National Chmapionships will be better or worse than Carr's.

By the way when making comparisons you cannot pick and choose which years to leave off.

My feelings of animosity to LC are based on three things: 1) App. State; 2) his inability to compete with JT and OSU; and 3) his negligent handling of recruiting and development from 2005 onward.

As I detailed in my thread about the historic lulls in Michigan's Big 10 Championship seasons, LC started out slowly after he took over, despite the fact that he inherited a program that was coming off 3 Big 10 Championships in a row and something like 6 of 7 leading into his tenure. Under Carr, for the first time since Bo took over in 1969, Michigan didn't win a Big 10 Championship for 4 seasons, and it wasn't until the magical season of 1997 that Carr stepped into the winner's circle. I respect Carr, but to be honest, I don't think he was anything special, and I feel like he and his teams UNDERACHIEVED more often than not. I think that his record reflects about the worst that Michigan was going to do (with 2 exceptions) considering that the Bo/Mo mojo was still in effect.

In regards to #3 above, I feel like Carr could have (and should have) mitigated a lot of the anger and impatience directed at RR by owning up to the fact that he wasn't the best steward of the program in his later years, i.e., that he handed it over in WORSE shape than he had received. If he came out and warned people that 2008 was most likely going to be rough, if he told them to be patient, they'd have listened.

I think you most certainly CAN drop years off a comparison when the REASON that 2008 and 2009 were so "unMichigan like" is BECAUSE of the previous coach's negligence.

[NCBLUE]

Sten unfortunatley when comparisons are made you cannot pick and choose what years to include. You either take the entire body of work or not at all. LC took over a program that was coming off back to back 8-4 seasons so I am not certain where the three straight titles came from.

I will agree LC teams underachieved at times but come on, can you honestly lay 100% of the blame for back to back losing seasons at his feet, It just sounds like excuses.

I want RR to succeed as badly as anyone but it has been a rough transitions to say the least.

I think if given time he will be successful but when it is all said and done I suspect his record will be similar to LC.