Thank You Obama

[Rockie]

Tonight in Obama's first address to the nation, he promised he would fix Michigan. You know, we went from 26 weeks of unemployment to 59 weeks of unemployemnt, under Obama, on top of that, we get a $25 raise each week on our unemployment and a 15% raise on our food stamps; than of course of all things, this Michigan thing just tops it off. I must learn this song
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/campus.cheer.tomi.michigan/content.1.html
Go Blue and may Obama live on

[RichRodriguez]

http://www.lolstash.com/images/fzjk2y8wk32b6tmhnooe.gif

[RichRodriguez]

i didnt get to see it, anyone know where i can watch it again online? thanks

[MAIZEandBLUEsuedeshoes]

You may or may not have to install the plug-in to watch the videos---part 1,2,3, etc...

http://www.foxnews.com/

Also CNN has it but I'm not sure which order the videos are supposed to be in at that site.

[tpilews]

i didnt get to see it, anyone know where i can watch it again online? thanks

You're not missin' much, big circle jerk for 'bama. After talking "doom and gloom" about the economy for the past month, it's "i'm gonna fix this, I'm gonna fix that" (if I don't fix it, I can just blame it on the last 8 years).

Pelosi was popping up every two seconds like a jack-in-the-box. That lady freaks me out. Watch her eyes, they were all over the place.

[rickyleach]

that picture of john M looks like tressel after usc put the hammer down on them last season.

[mgoblue1]

that picture of john M looks like tressel after usc put the hammer down on them last season.

LOL, thats funny ricky. I think that was the face he made after the tides turned in the Texas game and colt mccoy broke down and did the spin move into the endzone

[bigboyBlue]

Agreed, Pelosi was annoying as hell with her constant springing. Obama pretty much said what was expected.

The part I was disappointed with was Jindal, I was looking forward to his speech. Not that he was going to say anything spectacular, but dude needs to work on not sounding like a squeaky 5 year old.

[Blue In Ohio]

Rather than trying to calm the angry mob by trying to throw a bone by paying people for not working wouldn't it make a whole lot of sense to look into bringing the 20 million jobs that are outsourced home? Maybe it's time to start worrying about Americans and stop worrying about satisfying the demands of foreign countries. Our government would have money and would not be running deficits if millions who are unemployed were working and paying taxes on real wages instead of collecting government hand outs. I don't see how we can have it both ways. The cost of outsourcing is killing this country. I'd have to wonder for each dollar saved how many are spent by our government paying unemployment and medical for families out of work. This whole thing seems to be a bad deal and really makes no sense. We've all been sold a load of crap.

[osusteve]

Now what are we going to spend to ramp up the war in the black hole known as Afghanistan?
Great Britain could not win there, the Soviet Union could not win there. The U.S. cannot win there. That country is good for one thing -- poppy fields. Let the Taliban assume control of the country again from the the puppet Karzai government and things will be ok. Yes, they will brutalize their women. Hopefully, they will obliterate the poppy fields as they did when they ruled the country before. Yes, they harbored Bin Laden but that ass hole is now either dead or living somewhere in northern Pakistan. As leaders, they can't be any worse then the thugs running most countries in Africa and throughout most of the world.

[BLEEDINGBLUE]

You're not missin' much, big circle jerk for 'bama. After talking "doom and gloom" about the economy for the past month, it's "i'm gonna fix this, I'm gonna fix that" (if I don't fix it, I can just blame it on the last 8 years).

Pelosi was popping up every two seconds like a jack-in-the-box. That lady freaks me out. Watch her eyes, they were all over the place.

Agreed TPi, basically all I heard all night long was how he is going to continue to spend taxpayers money!

[Blue In Ohio]

I can't stand pelosi she does not even accept emails from out of staters which shows how arrogant she is. She does not care how much money she waste to her it is not about fixing the economy but finding as many dumb reasons she can to waste taxpayer money. If I went to congress and tried to screw up I don't think I could do any worse.

[Revelli]

Rather than trying to calm the angry mob by trying to throw a bone by paying people for not working wouldn't it make a whole lot of sense to look into bringing the 20 million jobs that are outsourced home? Maybe it's time to start worrying about Americans and stop worrying about satisfying the demands of foreign countries. Our government would have money and would not be running deficits if millions who are unemployed were working and paying taxes on real wages instead of collecting government hand outs. I don't see how we can have it both ways. The cost of outsourcing is killing this country. I'd have to wonder for each dollar saved how many are spent by our government paying unemployment and medical for families out of work. This whole thing seems to be a bad deal and really makes no sense. We've all been sold a load of crap.

Want the solution?

PASS THE FAIRTAX!!!!!!!

www.fairtax.org
www.fairtaxhub.com

[Sparty23]

one word to get out of every mess were in - isolationism

[bigboyBlue]

one word to get out of every mess were in - isolationism

Great idea. Pls go fu....er, isolate yourself :D.

[Sparty23]

Great idea. Pls go fu....er, isolate yourself :D.

Is somebody a little upset over the recent sporting events?

[bigboyBlue]

Is somebody a little upset over the recent sporting events?

No, I have a life.

[Sparty23]

No, I have a life.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to insinuate here.

Is it that you possibly don't care that scUM is the laughing stock of college football?

or

Maybe its that you don't care that you're basketball program hasn't sniffed the ncca tournament in over 10 years.

[bigboyBlue]

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to insinuate here.

Is it that you possibly don't care that scUM is the laughing stock of college football?

or

Maybe its that you don't care that you're basketball program hasn't sniffed the ncca tournament in over 10 years.

I never said I was apathetic. Do I care about performance? Yes. Does it keep me awake at night? No. Do I care what others think of me, or Michigan football? No. I'm Howard Roark bitch!

[tpilews]

Is it that you possibly don't care that scUM is the laughing stock of college football?


I know your beef is with bbb, but do you honestly feel this way? If so, you're the only one that I know of that feels this way. Most people I talk to say how UM will be back soon.

[ronleflore]

Now what are we going to spend to ramp up the war in the black hole known as Afghanistan?
Great Britain could not win there, the Soviet Union could not win there. The U.S. cannot win there. That country is good for one thing -- poppy fields. Let the Taliban assume control of the country again from the the puppet Karzai government and things will be ok. Yes, they will brutalize their women. Hopefully, they will obliterate the poppy fields as they did when they ruled the country before. Yes, they harbored Bin Laden but that ass hole is now either dead or living somewhere in northern Pakistan. As leaders, they can't be any worse then the thugs running most countries in Africa and throughout most of the world.

Steve, you probably got a PhD from Suckeye U. Maybe you haven’t ventured past Toledo or some other armpit of Oh Hi There. You say that the Taliban can't be any worse than the thugs running Africa and THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE WORLD. The Civilized world, like England Ireland France Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, New Zealand. Etc. Have you ever heard of these vacation spots?

No wonder ohio is a four letter word.

Holy shit, you are a f#$king moron.

[chriswebber]

I know your beef is with bbb, but do you honestly feel this way? If so, you're the only one that I know of that feels this way. Most people I talk to say how UM will be back soon.

Get out of the UM Locker Room. UM is the new Nebraska. The spread won't work in the Big Ten. If it did Purdue would be a power house. In basketball, jack a 3 will never work. Michigan is running Big East Programs in the Big Ten, the only difference is the Big Ten has talent.

[rickyleach]

Another thing that wont work criswebber is you runnin your mouth like you know what michigan can or cant do, michigan went to the spread just to piss you off ,why dont you go down to c/bus and snuggle up to your hero tressel and numnuts1

[ronleflore]

Get out of the UM Locker Room. UM is the new Nebraska. The spread won't work in the Big Ten. If it did Purdue would be a power house. In basketball, jack a 3 will never work. Michigan is running Big East Programs in the Big Ten, the only difference is the Big Ten has talent.

Please, STOP THE IGNORENCE:

1..Pitt
2..Conn
6..Louisville
8..Marquette
10.. Villenova


Big East has WAY MORE talent than the Big 10. Oh Shit, I mean Ohio!

[Sparty23]

I know your beef is with bbb, but do you honestly feel this way? If so, you're the only one that I know of that feels this way. Most people I talk to say how UM will be back soon.

Yes I do feel that they are the laughing stock of the country and to prove my point I'll list out everything that makes scUM the laughing stock of the country.

1. First and foremost the loss Appalachian State

2. The loss to Toledo

3. Going 3-9

4. Looking foolish in trying to find a head coach

5. Failing to beat any of you're 3 rivals

6. Barwis

7. Basketball

Im probably missing tons of things but those were the main points.

[tpilews]

Yes I do feel that they are the laughing stock of the country and to prove my point I'll list out everything that makes scUM the laughing stock of the country.

1. First and foremost the loss Appalachian State

2. The loss to Toledo

3. Going 3-9

4. Looking foolish in trying to find a head coach

5. Failing to beat any of you're 3 rivals

6. Barwis

7. Basketball

Im probably missing tons of things but those were the main points.

Thanks for an honest answer. It'll only be that much sweeter when UM smacks msu next year. I mean, it's about time you guys beat us. It's been awhile. It only took our worst team in the history of the school to help you too.

[tpilews]

1. First and foremost the loss Appalachian State


App St would've been ranked in the top 20 if they actually ranked fcs with fbs. They would've beaten a bunch of fbs teams in 2007.

Personally, I think the Toledo loss was much worse.

[1OSUNUT]

App.State did not even go unbeaten in 1AA the year that they beat you. Top 20 ? Get real. You lost to a high school team because your defense cannot tackle.

[Sparty23]

App.State did not even go unbeaten in 1AA the year that they beat you. Top 20 ? Get real. You lost to a high school team because your defense cannot tackle.

Well put nut.

[tpilews]

App.State did not even go unbeaten in 1AA the year that they beat you. Top 20 ? Get real. You lost to a high school team because your defense cannot tackle.

They won the divII playoffs. They were a damn good team.

[Bighouse]

that picture of john m looks like tressel after usc put the hammer down on them last season.
hahahahhahahah

[Sparty23]

They won the divII playoffs. They were a damn good team.

They were also in division II and you were ranked number 5 at the time most pathetic game in the history of college football.

[Seger]

Yes I do feel that they are the laughing stock of the country and to prove my point I'll list out everything that makes scUM the laughing stock of the country.

1. First and foremost the loss Appalachian State

2. The loss to Toledo

3. Going 3-9

4. Looking foolish in trying to find a head coach

5. Failing to beat any of you're 3 rivals

6. Barwis

7. Basketball

Im probably missing tons of things but those were the main points.
1. Bound to happen under Carr - that's why we wanted him gone.
2. RR's first year is always bad - no biggie.
3. See above.
4. Maybe, but look at TN.
5. Again, see #2 (and it's "your" this time)
6. Barwis is the man and you will see the results in time. Need proof? Just check out these pros he trained in the off season
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHH-6ZQktRQ
7. Laughing stock? Dude, what happened when you played UNC a few months ago at Ford Field?

[chriswebber]

They won the divII playoffs. They were a damn good team.

Ha ha ha ha ha haaa. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haa. Sure.... and the WNBA team that wins their title can come beat any NBA team... Sure.....

[RichRodriguez]

App.State did not even go unbeaten in 1AA the year that they beat you. Top 20 ? Get real. You lost to a high school team because your defense cannot tackle.

ASU offense was copied from RR's I hope you realize that right?

they would have slaughtered your mighty bucks, seriously they were a great team. they have seem to come down off that high though.

i also believe ASU plays Florida in 2010. but don't quote me on that, it needs to be double checked.

[AlwaysBlue]

5. Failing to beat any of you're 3 rivals



failing to beat any of *you are* 3 rivals? hmm.. there's that MSU education rearing its sexy head again.

UM may have fallen from powerhouse to less consequential on the national scene,.. but think of it this way, MSU Shane falco... youre not a has been, you're a never was!

and, in the end, if nothing else, we have our degrees to fall back on. not degrees in pepperoni distribution or degrees in license plate stamping though like our counterparts at MSU/OSU.

[chriswebber]

and, in the end, if nothing else, we have our degrees to fall back on. not degrees in pepperoni distribution or degrees in license plate stamping though like our counterparts at MSU/OSU.

Would that be General Studies, Near Eastern Civilizations, Mid Evil Lit, or the other numerous LSA degrees that are worthless. You know what we call the Michigan Graduate in my office? Administrative Assistant :D If you picked a decent program like engineering or medical school, I'd have more respect, but your Near Eastern Civs degree is on par with CC's Typing Seminar. No wait, CC's Typing Seminar doesn't produce arrogant typist.:eek:

[bigboyBlue]

Would that be General Studies, Near Eastern Civilizations, Mid Evil Lit, or the other numerous LSA degrees that are worthless. You know what we call the Michigan Graduate in my office? Administrative Assistant :D If you picked a decent program like engineering or medical school, I'd have more respect, but your Near Eastern Civs degree is on par with CC's Typing Seminar. No wait, CC's Typing Seminar doesn't produce arrogant typist.:eek:

Last I checked we didn't really deem any work, or degree worthless. Nice to know what you think of your Admin Assistant, maybe we should outsource his/her job.
It is pretty hilarious to have someone making fun of anyone getting a UM education, you must have a real inferiority complex because of that degree from that agricultural farmland in Lansing. Not that I can blame you though.

[chriswebber]

Last I checked we didn't really deem any work, or degree worthless. Nice to know what you think of your Admin Assistant, maybe we should outsource his/her job.
It is pretty hilarious to have someone making fun of anyone getting a UM education, you must have a real inferiority complex because of that degree from that agricultural farmland in Lansing. Not that I can blame you though.

Actually, I didn't go to MSU, but good try. I've actually worked with UM on research. Nice guys, sure asked alot of questio ns of this lowly graduate of a different school. :cool: But this is a UM homer board, I didn't expect anything else. Some people stomp on ants to be entertained, I post here.

[bigboyBlue]

Actually, I didn't go to MSU, but good try. I've actually worked with UM on research. Nice guys, sure asked alot of questio ns of this lowly graduate of a different school. :cool: But this is a UM homer board, I didn't expect anything else. Some people stomp on ants to be entertained, I post here.

Good, don't ever expect anything else, especially for trolls from no-fan land.

[Revelli]

one word to get out of every mess were in - isolationism

if you really believe that.... YOUR AN IDIOT SUPREME!!!!!

[Sten Carlson]

if you really believe that.... YOUR AN IDIOT SUPREME!!!!!

First of all, don't you think that when you indict someone as an idiot supreme, your admonishment has more impact if, in so doing, you refrain from displaying the classic difficulty in distinguishing between "your" and "you're?" I know you're a Michigan Man Revelli, so please have a bit more sense and pride in yourself, and the words that you chose to post in here as they're a reflection upon all of us!

Although I don't agree with Sparty that isolationism solves EVERY one of America's problems -- it does appear, at first blush, to be a tempting alternative to the outsourcing glut that has been wrought against our economy.

However, isolating the US from the rest of the world economically will be to our great detriment, unless we're able to bring back the millions of jobs, and billions of dollars that they used to producing in MANUFACTURED GOODS!

45 years ago the United States had something like 31 companies manufacturing televisions sets, today we have NONE! Since the late 60s our steel industry has all but withered, and now that the American People have written a check to GM, they've decided to invest a HUGE chunk of that bailout in their operations in Brazil! We used to be the manufacturing KING OF THE WORLD, and now we make nothing but a few odds and ends, and things that no body wants.

To tell GM they cannot do that does nothing if they're not also forced to bring the factories and the jobs back. Amazingly, and seemingly negligently, our own government went from being in the business of protecting our markets through the use of hefty tariffs and trade balancing protections, to actually giving TAX INCENTIVES to companies sending jobs overseas!

Again, although it seems enticing to think that we could just slam the door shut on the rest of the world, and all our problems will go away, it is naive to think that we've not ventured way past the point of no return in the global economy.

American industry, and Americans in general, MUST come up with something that we have, that we can make, that the rest of the world NEEDS and is willing to pay for! This service based crap isn't going to cut it as the demand for such services withers under the weight of the deepening depression.

We're FASCIST now, in the classic sense, in that almost every fiscal policy is geared toward increasing CORPORATE profits, but those profits aren't shared with the PUBLIC, yet the PUBLIC is expected to pick up the tab for all CORPORATE losses.

So Sparty, although I agree in principle with your statement, I think total isolationism is a mistake, and would worsen the problems without the proper precursors like renewed industrial might and strong tariffs.

[SpreadOinAA]

App.State did not even go unbeaten in 1AA the year that they beat you. Top 20 ? Get real. You lost to a high school team because your defense cannot tackle.

I'm not saying that it wasn't that bad of a loss, but if you think it was that bad, there have been worse. I believe Vegas had us favored by 17 or something close to that, and they know a few things about numbers. USC was favored by 35 when they played Stanford, quite a difference if you ask me. Also, that App State team had 3 players drafted to the NFL. I'd say that's more then half of Div 1 teams.

[Wolvrin704]

Actually, I didn't go to MSU, but good try. I've actually worked with UM on research. Nice guys, sure asked alot of questio ns of this lowly graduate of a different school. :cool: But this is a UM homer board, I didn't expect anything else. Some people stomp on ants to be entertained, I post here.

Since you're so smart and UM grads are idiots, pray tell what esteemed school did you go to? :rolleyes:

[Revelli]

First of all, don't you think that when you indict someone as an idiot supreme, your admonishment has more impact if, in so doing, you refrain from displaying the classic difficulty in distinguishing between "your" and "you're?" I know you're a Michigan Man Revelli, so please have a bit more sense and pride in yourself, and the words that you chose to post in here as they're a reflection upon all of us!

Although I don't agree with Sparty that isolationism solves EVERY one of America's problems -- it does appear, at first blush, to be a tempting alternative to the outsourcing glut that has been wrought against our economy.

However, isolating the US from the rest of the world economically will be to our great detriment, unless we're able to bring back the millions of jobs, and billions of dollars that they used to producing in MANUFACTURED GOODS!

45 years ago the United States had something like 31 companies manufacturing televisions sets, today we have NONE! Since the late 60s our steel industry has all but withered, and now that the American People have written a check to GM, they've decided to invest a HUGE chunk of that bailout in their operations in Brazil! We used to be the manufacturing KING OF THE WORLD, and now we make nothing but a few odds and ends, and things that no body wants.

To tell GM they cannot do that does nothing if they're not also forced to bring the factories and the jobs back. Amazingly, and seemingly negligently, our own government went from being in the business of protecting our markets through the use of hefty tariffs and trade balancing protections, to actually giving TAX INCENTIVES to companies sending jobs overseas!

Again, although it seems enticing to think that we could just slam the door shut on the rest of the world, and all our problems will go away, it is naive to think that we've not ventured way past the point of no return in the global economy.

American industry, and Americans in general, MUST come up with something that we have, that we can make, that the rest of the world NEEDS and is willing to pay for! This service based crap isn't going to cut it as the demand for such services withers under the weight of the deepening depression.

We're FASCIST now, in the classic sense, in that almost every fiscal policy is geared toward increasing CORPORATE profits, but those profits aren't shared with the PUBLIC, yet the PUBLIC is expected to pick up the tab for all CORPORATE losses.

So Sparty, although I agree in principle with your statement, I think total isolationism is a mistake, and would worsen the problems without the proper precursors like renewed industrial might and strong tariffs.

First off, if you had read the earlier posts you would have recognized my intended sarcasm with "your/you're".... R-tard.

As for the rest of YOUR thread... WHAT A BUNCH OF LIBERAL HOG-WASH!!!

American companies out-source and relocate for two reasons only:
1.) American workers, because of labor unions and the benefits they bargain for, are the most expensive employees in the world. (for examples... see the big 3) They drive down profits and hinder internal company re-investment.

2.) The American tax system is the most repressive in the world to corporate entities. By giving tax incentives to those companies the gov't was trying to keep them from relocating out-of-country, but in the end the tax incentives could not make up for the high corporate tax rates. Want to solve the problem? Pass the FAIRTAX, as I already said.

www.fairtax.org
www.fairtaxhub.com

[UM4life]

This whole thread is in the wrong forum and offends me. I come to this forum to talk about Michgian Football not Obama socializing the country with tax and spend policies.

but to stay on topic:


American industry, and Americans in general, MUST come up with something that we have, that we can make, that the rest of the world NEEDS and is willing to pay for! This service based crap isn't going to cut it as the demand for such services withers under the weight of the deepening depression.

Ever been to China? EVERYTHING there is "Made in USA".


We're FASCIST now, in the classic sense, in that almost every fiscal policy is geared toward increasing CORPORATE profits, but those profits aren't shared with the PUBLIC, yet the PUBLIC is expected to pick up the tab for all CORPORATE losses.

Thats not Facism, thats Socialism or as Dems call it "Nationalize".

[Sten Carlson]

First off, if you had read the earlier posts you would have recognized my intended sarcasm with "your/you're".... R-tard.

As for the rest of YOUR thread... WHAT A BUNCH OF LIBERAL HOG-WASH!!!

American companies out-source and relocate for two reasons only:
1.) American workers, because of labor unions and the benefits they bargain for, are the most expensive employees in the world. (for examples... see the big 3) They drive down profits and hinder internal company re-investment.

2.) The American tax system is the most repressive in the world to corporate entities. By giving tax incentives to those companies the gov't was trying to keep them from relocating out-of-country, but in the end the tax incentives could not make up for the high corporate tax rates. Want to solve the problem? Pass the FAIRTAX, as I already said.

www.fairtax.org
www.fairtaxhub.com

Your sarcasm didn't come through.

You think its wrong for the American worker to be the most expensive in the world? Don't you think that has something to do with the reason why used to have the highest standard of living in the world? There were plenty of job that payed well enough for a single wage earner to support a family. Corporations out-source because they're run by greedy bastards who would just assume put thousands into the unemployment lines as long as it means they're getting the $500k bonus each and every year!

I think it traitorous to wag your finger at the American Worker and to claim they "drove down profits" -- Bullshit! They don't make those decisions and they certainly wouldn't drive down the profits of their own company -- it the top brass Harvard MBA goons that make those decisions.

The conversation is moot now as there aren't any manufacturing or heavy industry jobs left in this country anyway. You're just like all the Mexican people that I speak with here in TX -- they claim that they do all the jobs that American people don't want to do, and that Americans are lazy. I respond, by saying that Americans were doing those jobs, and they were making a living doing so. But, slowly and incrementally, the cost of living has increased, and the wages from those menial jobs haven't kept pace, in fact, many have dropped. Mexican (and other immigrants used to making a few dollars a day) show up (because the Gov't turned a blind eye to the laws already in place, laws meant to protect the American Worker) and a more than happy to work for $6.00 -- many live in multi-family housing situations, many are men here to work and sending almost everything they make to Mexico. I don't blame them, they're just wanting to work, but to wag your finger at an American worker who isn't willing to be a dish washer for $6.00 per hour when 20 years ago that job had the equivalent wage of $12.00 per hour isn't' quite fair nor rational. There's a half off sale everywhere for corporations, and its all at the expense of the American Labor force!

Indians are getting rich running call centers and IT departments, yet Americans that used to have those jobs are unemployed or working in whatever capacity they can get. Is that a good thing?

It's all by design fellas, mark my words! The US Economy was slated for execution two decades ago, so that the entire world could be brought under one central bank, some call it the One World Government!

Everything was a calculated action -- let in millions of immigrants, drive the wages down, drive the cost of living up, give our credit like Halloween candy, get every sucker out there to put their nest egg into the 100% manipulated Wall Street System, give them some profits for a bit, just to make more people get "in to the market", then when everyone (even wealthy people) are leveraged to the hilt and living on credit, loot the treasury and bottom the bitch out, then roll out the conveniently waiting solution -- the Amero, the currency of the North American Union between US, Canada, and Mexico.

I am ready for the hail of insults from all of you econ guys out there, but just you watch! Mark my words and watch!

[blueisbetterthanred]

The Amero was a red herring, while everyone was looking at that, the North American Union has already been formed and signed into law. No press, no media, no more borders. It's all on paper and signed now, it's just a matter of implementation.

It's scary how quickly it happened and how little it was reported on.

[The Michigan Man]

First off, if you had read the earlier posts you would have recognized my intended sarcasm with "your/you're".... R-tard.

As for the rest of YOUR thread... WHAT A BUNCH OF LIBERAL HOG-WASH!!!

American companies out-source and relocate for two reasons only:
1.) American workers, because of labor unions and the benefits they bargain for, are the most expensive employees in the world. (for examples... see the big 3) They drive down profits and hinder internal company re-investment.

2.) The American tax system is the most repressive in the world to corporate entities. By giving tax incentives to those companies the gov't was trying to keep them from relocating out-of-country, but in the end the tax incentives could not make up for the high corporate tax rates. Want to solve the problem? Pass the FAIRTAX, as I already said.

www.fairtax.org
www.fairtaxhub.com

1) Have to agree. I have a million anecdotal stories from several years spent at a Big 3 corp. Some days I wondered how the hell we were able to get a viable product off of the lines, with the poor work habits, absenteeism, and ridiculous contract payouts. Is it sensible to pay a guy 100k a year (w/ over time) to empty trash cans? I'm amazed that there is any manufacturing left in this country - get the labor unions under control and maybe some of these jobs will come back. The foundation of the American labor union movement was safety, child labor, unreasonable hours, etc.– with OSHA and other labor laws that have subsequently been enacted, the labor union is a dinosaur.

2) Have to agree. The government should get out of the way and let companies run their businesses.

Mexicans aren't doing the jobs Americans won't do - they are doing the jobs that Americans won't do for peanuts. The pursuit of free / cheap labor has been this country's downfall (that slavery thing cost a lot of $$ and lives at the end of the day in the name of free labor, didn't it), and always costs an exponential amount of money more than the $$ saved for underpaying someone.

We can get Americans to pick fruit, pound nails, be nannies, etc., but it will cost more - we can either suck it up and pay the $$ in wages to an American, or ultimately pay more by hiring an immigrant under the table and later pay his health care costs, endure more crime, and pay unemployment benefits to the displaced domestic worker.

[rickyleach]

great post MM, i grew up in the detroit area and know many people that have worked for the big3 , making 100 thousand plus was pretty normal for many workers, i have a really close friend that works for detroit deeeezle and there were employees making 150.000 plus doing squat, everyone at there plant in warren were cutting their own checks, it has only been from the beginning of this year that they have started to monitor the problem, all employees have been told no more ot period, and as far as the union , they have sucked the life out of the big3 and now have the guts to ask for money, they are a joke and as far as im concerned can fold and reopen under new terms, lousy employees plus lousy management , times the union equal doom, and i hope they get what they deserve.

[Revelli]

Actually Sten you're wrong again... but not about everyting.

Your comment on the one world gov't is spot on, but your comment about incomes keeping up with the economy shows your misunderstandings. It works like this: Government comes up with projects to get re-elected, they borrow trillions from the fed reserve bank (which is the definition of inflation) to pay for it, and private companies can't afford to pay their employees the inflated equivalent in salary. So they try to bring in a really highly respected person to run the company so they can do better, and they have to pay them a high salary because the free market demands it. The high salaries are not as much as most people think, but it upsets me too, that they still earn huge bonuses even if they fail. That is the height of irresponsability to me, but alas, It's not illegal and I'm not a stock holder, so I don't get a say in the matter. But this is exactly why I say it is rediculous to bail them out. If they have done this then they should go out of business and not get bailed out, but the finger pointing still should go to those who inflated the currency in the first place, not the CEOs. REALITY: big government is to blame.

Now, I tire of this political arguement... can we talk M football??

[Buzz]

Actually Sten you're wrong again... but not about everyting.

Your comment on the one world gov't is spot on, but your comment about incomes keeping up with the economy shows your misunderstandings. It works like this: Government comes up with projects to get re-elected, they borrow trillions from the fed reserve bank (which is the definition of inflation) to pay for it, and private companies can't afford to pay their employees the inflated equivalent in salary. So they try to bring in a really highly respected person to run the company so they can do better, and they have to pay them a high salary because the free market demands it. The high salaries are not as much as most people think, but it upsets me too, that they still earn huge bonuses even if they fail. That is the height of irresponsability to me, but alas, It's not illegal and I'm not a stock holder, so I don't get a say in the matter. But this is exactly why I say it is rediculous to bail them out. If they have done this then they should go out of business and not get bailed out, but the finger pointing still should go to those who inflated the currency in the first place, not the CEOs. REALITY: big government is to blame.

Now, I tire of this political arguement... can we talk M football??

That's pretty funny

[wolverine]

we have morons running this country pelsoi unstable ...reid unreliable...obama untrustworthy

[RealSchool]

For anyone that said anything negative of our President in this thread I charge you with treason. During the time of war you are a traitor to say anything negative. What would the troops think of your comments about the President.

Support the Troops and President Obama. If you don't, move to Canada.

[Mich97c]

For anyone that said anything negative of our President in this thread I charge you with treason. During the time of war you are a traitor to say anything negative. What would the troops think of your comments about the President.

Support the Troops and President Obama. If you don't, move to Canada.

Too bad for the troops on the withdrawal - the economy is better in Iraq right now.

[Sten Carlson]

For anyone that said anything negative of our President in this thread I charge you with treason. During the time of war you are a traitor to say anything negative. What would the troops think of your comments about the President.

Support the Troops and President Obama. If you don't, move to Canada.

I hope you're joking!

When was that Constitutionally mandated Declaration of War approved by Congress? Oh I forgot, nobody in the White House adheres to the Constitution any more, not even our Harvard trained Constitutional Law Professor.

[RealSchool]

I hope you're joking!

When was that Constitutionally mandated Declaration of War approved by Congress? Oh I forgot, nobody in the White House adheres to the Constitution any more, not even our Harvard trained Constitutional Law Professor.

The point of my post is that for the last 8 years all I have heard from Republicans is that we are to not say anything bad about the President during a time of war, but now that a Dem is in the Whitehouse all those rules have changed.

A bunch of hyprocrites, each and everyone of them.

[bigboyBlue]

The point of my post is that for the last 8 years all I have heard from Republicans is that we are to not say anything bad about the President during a time of war, but now that a Dem is in the Whitehouse all those rules have changed.

A bunch of hyprocrites, each and everyone of them.

Evidently your leader can vocally and emphatically wish the president fails too. Fun times, fun times..

[Mich97c]

Evidently your leader can vocally and emphatically wish the president fails too. Fun times, fun times..

Are you referring to Rush L.? As far as I know he's not a leader of the Rep. party. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy his show but the fact he's even in the press about a talk show is kinda of stupid.

[Sten Carlson]

The point of my post is that for the last 8 years all I have heard from Republicans is that we are to not say anything bad about the President during a time of war, but now that a Dem is in the Whitehouse all those rules have changed.

A bunch of hyprocrites, each and everyone of them.

Very true about that one Real!

There is nothing, IMO, that it more American than questioning and saying "bad" things about the President if you disagree with his policies. This idea of trying to silence debate and opposition to something, especially an illegal war, is draconian treason as I see it! I think the whole cabal that brought about this farce of a "war" should be tried at a war crimes tribunal and made to answer for the millions of deaths their perjury and deceit have caused.

The Democrats and the Republicans are a two headed monster put into place to keep the appearance of political debate, when in actual fact behind the scenes both parties are ruled by the same nefarious master -- the international banking cartels. The "Left-Right Paradigm" some call it, or the the Hegelian dialectic in which the powerful banks and financiers play both sides, fund both warring factions, knowing that in the end they will always win!

[Silver Bullet]

Are you referring to Rush L.? As far as I know he's not a leader of the Rep. party. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy his show but the fact he's even in the press about a talk show is kinda of stupid.

www.imsorryrush.com

[bigboyBlue]

Are you referring to Rush L.? As far as I know he's not a leader of the Rep. party. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy his show but the fact he's even in the press about a talk show is kinda of stupid.

Mich97c, I think the guy is a tool, but the only reason he is in the press is because of Michael Steele's comments and (worse!) because he actually felt pressured to apologize for them, and called Limbaugh a 'National Conservative Leader'! I mean WTF!

Which brings us to the question, who do you consider the decisive GOP leader these days (genuine question here)? McCain is kinda fading already, Palin hasn't changed any perceptions about her, Steele just made a fool of himself, and Jindal was....underwhelming in his moment to shine.

Edit: Also, given that Limbaugh is on the air for 3 hours every weekday and makes over $30M a year, I'm guess there's plenty of people looking up to him :)

[bluestimestwo]

Non-interventionist foreign policy, yes. Economic isolationism, no. Autarky always leads to a lower standard of living due to the misallocation of resources.



You think its wrong for the American worker to be the most expensive in the world? Don't you think that has something to do with the reason why used to have the highest standard of living in the world? There were plenty of job that payed well enough for a single wage earner to support a family. Corporations out-source because they're run by greedy bastards who would just assume put thousands into the unemployment lines as long as it means they're getting the $500k bonus each and every year!

We had the highest standard of living in the world because we had the highest per capita production in the world. The economy expands when labor is applied to capital, producing a product that is valued by the marketplace. The US has generally ranked among the top countries in the economic freedom rankings (but we are slipping every year), meaning that the economy was free to grow with minimal interference. Capitalism provides for the most efficient allocation of resources, meaning it is the most efficient process of matching the appropriate amounts of labor with the appropriate capital investments. The result was the high levels of productivity that we all enjoyed. As technology evolved, we were able to produce more and more with fewer and fewer resources, resulting in an increasing standard of living.

The US worker, however, is not unique when it comes to basic manufacturing. Because manufacturing labor is essentially a commodity (sorry, but it is true - is one person decidedly better at bolting on a given part on an assembly line?), the price is one of the only areas of differentiation, and thus price competition occurs. Failure to take advantage of less expensive labor would place companies at a distinct disadvantage, and could drive them out of business entirely. Do the companies want to make money? Sure. If they don't they won't exist.

Also, the Cato Institute had a great blog entry on outsourcing, which provided some interesting facts (such as, almost 90% of foreign-produced goods and services are consumed overseas rather than being reimported to compete with domestic goods):

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/02/25/the-outsourcing-canard/


I think it traitorous to wag your finger at the American Worker and to claim they "drove down profits" -- Bullshit! They don't make those decisions and they certainly wouldn't drive down the profits of their own company -- it the top brass Harvard MBA goons that make those decisions.

It is a global economy now, and other countries have access to much of the same capital that we have. If they can produce the same products at a lower cost, why wouldn't they? If you go looking to buy a particular product, do you try to find the store with the highest prices, so that the owner will have a higher standard of living? Of course not. People generally seek the least expensive way to fulfill their need for the product. Companies are no different. If they overpay for their inputs, their competition will be able to provide the same product at a lower price, and drive them out of business.


The conversation is moot now as there aren't any manufacturing or heavy industry jobs left in this country anyway. You're just like all the Mexican people that I speak with here in TX -- they claim that they do all the jobs that American people don't want to do, and that Americans are lazy. I respond, by saying that Americans were doing those jobs, and they were making a living doing so. But, slowly and incrementally, the cost of living has increased, and the wages from those menial jobs haven't kept pace, in fact, many have dropped. Mexican (and other immigrants used to making a few dollars a day) show up (because the Gov't turned a blind eye to the laws already in place, laws meant to protect the American Worker) and a more than happy to work for $6.00 -- many live in multi-family housing situations, many are men here to work and sending almost everything they make to Mexico. I don't blame them, they're just wanting to work, but to wag your finger at an American worker who isn't willing to be a dish washer for $6.00 per hour when 20 years ago that job had the equivalent wage of $12.00 per hour isn't' quite fair nor rational. There's a half off sale everywhere for corporations, and its all at the expense of the American Labor force!

If your job can be done equally well at half of the price, you are probably overpaid. Like it or not, there is a market clearing price for all products, labor included. Hiring the least expensive option for doing the job simply frees up capital for more productive uses. That is the only way the economy can grow. Refusal to accept that principle is largely what got us in our current predicament. You can try to ignore the laws of economics, but they will always catch up with you in the long run. We are paying the price for thinking that we could manipulate the marketplace (artificially low fed rates, burdensome regulation, etc.).


Indians are getting rich running call centers and IT departments, yet Americans that used to have those jobs are unemployed or working in whatever capacity they can get. Is that a good thing?

It's all by design fellas, mark my words! The US Economy was slated for execution two decades ago, so that the entire world could be brought under one central bank, some call it the One World Government!

Everything was a calculated action -- let in millions of immigrants, drive the wages down, drive the cost of living up, give our credit like Halloween candy, get every sucker out there to put their nest egg into the 100% manipulated Wall Street System, give them some profits for a bit, just to make more people get "in to the market", then when everyone (even wealthy people) are leveraged to the hilt and living on credit, loot the treasury and bottom the bitch out, then roll out the conveniently waiting solution -- the Amero, the currency of the North American Union between US, Canada, and Mexico.

I am ready for the hail of insults from all of you econ guys out there, but just you watch! Mark my words and watch!

There is no doubt that certain people (the Soroses of the world) would love to see the One World approach succeed, but I don't think that the current situation is entirely planned. I think that it is more a consequence of government incompetence and arrogance. The Federal Government has arrogantly assumed that we could burden our industries with taxes and regulation and not become less productive. It also incompetently tried to maipulate the marketplace with no respect for the law of unintended consequences. Lawmakers act as if they are legislating in a vacuum, and they are shocked when people react in unintended ways. Markets work. Freedom works. The farther we get away from those concepts, the worse we will all be.

[bluestimestwo]

Mich97c, I think the guy is a tool, but the only reason he is in the press is because of Michael Steele's comments and (worse!) because he actually felt pressured to apologize for them, and called Limbaugh a 'National Conservative Leader'! I mean WTF!

Which brings us to the question, who do you consider the decisive GOP leader these days (genuine question here)? McCain is kinda fading already, Palin hasn't changed any perceptions about her, Steele just made a fool of himself, and Jindal was....underwhelming in his moment to shine.

Edit: Also, given that Limbaugh is on the air for 3 hours every weekday and makes over $30M a year, I'm guess there's plenty of people looking up to him :)

Rep. Paul Ryan here in Wisconsin seems like he has a bright future. He may be too young and under the radar right now, but he is enthusiastic and well-spoken. I wonder if he will get some attention over the next four years.

If the GOP could credibly return to being a party of limited government, they might be able to pull in more Ron Paul libertarians and independents. I don't mean being Democrat-light, but rather offering a true alternative to the business-as-usual Washington crowd. Our Federal Government is unsustainable in its current, bloated form, and Obama is just doubling-down on Bush's big government tendencies. He favors different special interests, sure, but he is just the opposite side of the same big government coin.

[Wolvrin704]

Mich97c, I think the guy is a tool, but the only reason he is in the press is because of Michael Steele's comments and (worse!) because he actually felt pressured to apologize for them, and called Limbaugh a 'National Conservative Leader'! I mean WTF!

Which brings us to the question, who do you consider the decisive GOP leader these days (genuine question here)? McCain is kinda fading already, Palin hasn't changed any perceptions about her, Steele just made a fool of himself, and Jindal was....underwhelming in his moment to shine.

Edit: Also, given that Limbaugh is on the air for 3 hours every weekday and makes over $30M a year, I'm guess there's plenty of people looking up to him :)

Right now there is no true Republican leader. Michael Steele could be but caved in to Rush; McCain is done as a party leader, he still has some power but once you lose a presidential election at his age its all downhill from there; Palin is a non-entity as governor of a small (population-wise) state, were she to become a senator it would enhance her viability as a leader; and Jindal will have a ways to go to regain his luster. Perhaps someone will step up over the next 4 years but I'm concerned that it won't happen.

The whole Limbaugh thing is kind of disconcerting considering that even the White House has joined efforts to discredit him. I by no means am a fan of his but what does it say about the leadership of our country and the Democratic Party when they are singling out one talk show host? Plus the efforts to bring back "fair and balanced" talk radio. You know why liberal shows fail? Because no one listens idiots.

Its also concerning how the liberal, Democratic leadership and even the media have taken up blasting conservativism at every turn. With the huge missteps by the new regime it won't take much for the political temperature of the country to turn around and some serious backlash to occur. I already see it where I live, allot of people are angry with Congress and Obama.

[bigboyBlue]

Right now there is no true Republican leader. Michael Steele could be but caved in to Rush; McCain is done as a party leader, he still has some power but once you lose a presidential election at his age its all downhill from there; Palin is a non-entity as governor of a small (population-wise) state, were she to become a senator it would enhance her viability as a leader; and Jindal will have a ways to go to regain his luster. Perhaps someone will step up over the next 4 years but I'm concerned that it won't happen.

The whole Limbaugh thing is kind of disconcerting considering that even the White House has joined efforts to discredit him. I by no means am a fan of his but what does it say about the leadership of our country and the Democratic Party when they are singling out one talk show host? Plus the efforts to bring back "fair and balanced" talk radio. You know why liberal shows fail? Because no one listens idiots.

Its also concerning how the liberal, Democratic leadership and even the media have taken up blasting conservativism at every turn. With the huge missteps by the new regime it won't take much for the political temperature of the country to turn around and some serious backlash to occur. I already see it where I live, allot of people are angry with Congress and Obama.

You're putting the White House and the Democratic party on a pedestal here my friend :). I for one think all politicians, Dems or Reps, liberals or conservatives, are more alike than different. I agree with your analysis of how the Dems are behaving, but I also have no doubts that Reps would have done exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Its gotten pretty petty lately too, and is disappointing of the overall political atmosphere.

[tpilews]

but I also have no doubts that Reps would have done exactly the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

I disagree with that. Who's been trying to get tax cuts and stop spending money on unnecessary shit? Which party is going to raise taxes next?

[Sten Carlson]

There is no doubt that certain people (the Soroses of the world) would love to see the One World approach succeed, but I don't think that the current situation is entirely planned. I think that it is more a consequence of government incompetence and arrogance. The Federal Government has arrogantly assumed that we could burden our industries with taxes and regulation and not become less productive. It also incompetently tried to maipulate the marketplace with no respect for the law of unintended consequences. Lawmakers act as if they are legislating in a vacuum, and they are shocked when people react in unintended ways. Markets work. Freedom works. The farther we get away from those concepts, the worse we will all be.

If you don't think the current situation is by design, then IMO you're naive, and you're incapable of looking objectively at the system in which you're immersed. You've studied and learned all the theory, but never asked if the theory was true, or just taught to MBAs and PhDs so as to create a legion of "professionals" willing to uphold and toe the line drawn by the banks and institutions whose power INSISTS upon such obedience!

The bungling Fed is just an act -- they know what they're doing, and they're following a proscribed agenda, and they've been doing it since their unconstitutional inception in 1913. The mythical "Market" that you say works is a sham -- it has always been controlled, and always will be. There are so many instances in which banks and large institutions have lied and tricked the people into believing that "market forces" caused something to occur or not to occur, when in fact they, the ones with their hands on the dials, were fiddling with them and engineering the crisis, the booms, and the busts. Lawmakers act shocked, but not because they're stupid, but because that is what they're told to do! THEY DON'T EVEN READ THE BILLS ANYMORE! They're handed a 11,000 page document drafted by the Ford Foundation, or a Rothschild banker, or the like, and they just pass it along, without a care in the world as to what the ramifications are for their constituents. That's because they don't represent US, WE THE PEOPLE, they represent their masters, the banks, and the corporations. Recently, however, that fake shock and dismay is beginning to wear thin and I think more and more people are starting to see the agenda laid out before us as our nation is looted to the bone by traitors and foreign corporations.

Our nation has be usurped by a foreign corporation my friend, which has done nothing but drive us into debt, depression, and war! Worse still, when that corporation rears its ugly head in another (and perhaps final) attempt to destroy our freedom and sovereignty, those among us that are learned in finance and economics find every way possible to demonize the American people, and bow to the almighty SYSTEM that has you so hypnotized.

Don't you get it? This is not a case of competition driving companies to seek cheaper labor, or of global market forces dictating necessity. This is a case of liquidation, or foreclosure, and of a designed and specific attack on the most powerful and free people on the planet, the American Middle Class. This is about turning our once great nation into a 3rd world economy, because as long as our economy stood tall, the draconian dream of a One World Government would never come to pass! You, and most others, blame the victim, instead of looking for the culprit!

For Shame!

[bigboyBlue]

I disagree with that. Who's been trying to get tax cuts and stop spending money on unnecessary shit? Which party is going to raise taxes next?

What unnecessary shit man? I don't see anything killing here

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/03/stimulus.money/index.html

Also, I was responding to the "Why the white house is discussing a talk show" thing, but this is a valid discussion too.

[tpilews]

What unnecessary shit man? I don't see anything killing here

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/03/stimulus.money/index.html

Also, I was responding to the "Why the white house is discussing a talk show" thing, but this is a valid discussion too.

That link is great and all and account for 40% of the money. What about the other 60% of the story.

The unnecessary shit I'm talking about is:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2009/02/19/finding-the-pork-in-the-obama-stimulus-bill.html


$385 million "Bridge to Nowhere" for Alaska


despite what Obama said -- special-interest spending has found its way into the stimulus in massive doses

I'm completely fine with some of the spending for things like Lithium-Ion battery technology because that stuff is going to help the automobile industry and energy sectors.

There are some worthy projects in the bill that some extreme far righters are considering pork, that I wouldn't.

There's a lot of little stuff that add up to a ton of money. I think we just need to let the market do its thing. Stop devaluing the USD.

[Blue In Ohio]

I happen to realize the truth that all jobs are nothing more than commodity. Who are we kidding? The most basic general labor to the most high tech high skilled could be done in another country for less. The free trade we have gives the workers no barganing power whatsoever and gives all the advantages to the ceo's and top executives. I don't agree with this. The benefits of producing one product benefit the very few versus benefitting everybody. This is why we now have no economy. The wealth is no longer shared. I'll be a fan of so called "free trade" when ceo's and executives reduce my cost by outsourcing their own jobs so that I can get the products for a lower price. After all they are the ones who's salaries are not competitive not the workers. Must be nice to work in a world where a bonus is rewarded reguardless of how one performs. I would also like to avoid doing business altogether with any American company that outsources and buy directly from China so that American executives make nothing off me. If the American ceo's don't feel I am good enough for a job then I have a right to feel they are not good enough for my business.

[Buzz]

I happen to realize the truth that all jobs are nothing more than commodity. Who are we kidding? The most basic general labor to the most high tech high skilled could be done in another country for less. The free trade we have gives the workers no barganing power whatsoever and gives all the advantages to the ceo's and top executives. I don't agree with this. The benefits of producing one product benefit the very few versus benefitting everybody. This is why we now have no economy. The wealth is no longer shared. I'll be a fan of so called "free trade" when ceo's and executives reduce my cost by outsourcing their own jobs so that I can get the products for a lower price. After all they are the ones who's salaries are not competitive not the workers. Must be nice to work in a world where a bonus is rewarded reguardless of how one performs. I would also like to avoid doing business altogether with any American company that outsources and buy directly from China so that American executives make nothing off me. If the American ceo's don't feel I am good enough for a job then I have a right to feel they are not good enough for my business.

I have no problem with outsourcing jobs, but I don't understand the outsourcing of jobs over seas when there is huge demand for employment of all types in this country right now. The other day I went on to amazon to purchase a DVD; Witness to the Mob. but I called customer service first to verify my order. I talked to a rep in India and thought it was remarkable.

These same companies that have outsourced and shipped jobs over seas are the same ones begging for money......and when they get their welfare checks, what do they do? Buy planes and issue bonuses out to a staff full of complete failures.

These CEOs and board members need a swift kick in the @#$ and a pink slip...not a welfare check, cause they're well read and understand the fact that nobody's gonna give you anything.....you have to take it.

I agree with you, Blue in Ohio....I'm not spending my money with companies shipping jobs over seas any more.....this country's leadership has been long overdue for an overhaul.

[bigboyBlue]

That link is great and all and account for 40% of the money. What about the other 60% of the story.

The unnecessary shit I'm talking about is:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/economy/2009/02/19/finding-the-pork-in-the-obama-stimulus-bill.html





I'm completely fine with some of the spending for things like Lithium-Ion battery technology because that stuff is going to help the automobile industry and energy sectors.

There are some worthy projects in the bill that some extreme far righters are considering pork, that I wouldn't.

There's a lot of little stuff that add up to a ton of money. I think we just need to let the market do its thing. Stop devaluing the USD.

Well yeah, not a perfect bill, I absolutely agree, but I think overall it is pointed in the right direction, so maybe we'll just have to disagree on that part. But (as the article notes) a good chunk of that mystery money will flow to local and state governments, which will need to step up to the plate. There is only so much generic federal oversight can achieve.

[bigboyBlue]

I have no problem with outsourcing jobs, but I don't understand the outsourcing of jobs over seas when there is huge demand for employment of all types in this country right now. The other day I went on to amazon to purchase a DVD; Witness to the Mob. but I called customer service first to verify my order. I talked to a rep in India and thought it was remarkable.

Buzz the problem is not that there aren't potential employees here, but would they do the same work for 50% less? Therein lies the conundrum. Most of these jobs again are of the unskilled/semi-skilled kind, and anyplace where you have a ton of unskilled/semi-skilled people (India) will do it cheaper. The Chinese have a bit of a language problem, otherwise the outsourcing situation would be far worse.

This is why the skilled labor argument is made, a lot. As an example, a lot of the Tech companies like IBM, Microsoft, etc lobby for increased visas due to lack of skilled personnel here; they're still paying these visa-holding non-residents US wages, so now why wouldn't they hire more locally if they could find the right people?

[chriswebber]

This is why the skilled labor argument is made, a lot. As an example, a lot of the Tech companies like IBM, Microsoft, etc lobby for increased visas due to lack of skilled personnel here; they're still paying these visa-holding non-residents US wages, so now why wouldn't they hire more locally if they could find the right people?

The visas are also a profit scheme. A foreign employee will work for less to remain in the USA. Whereas a domestic worker will want fair pay, leaving the visa holder with the job. Visas are taking american jobs, in america.

[bigboyBlue]

The visas are also a profit scheme. A foreign employee will work for less to remain in the USA. Whereas a domestic worker will want fair pay, leaving the visa holder with the job. Visas are taking american jobs, in america.

Big misconception, and also illegal to do so. Not to say it doesn't happen, but the major consumers of the worker visa program (again, mostly tech companies) pay foreign hires on par with US hires.

[chriswebber]

Big misconception, and also illegal to do so. Not to say it doesn't happen, but the major consumers of the worker visa program (again, mostly tech companies) pay foreign hires on par with US hires.

False, my friends have ran into this problem. Yes, it is illegal to do such things in the open, but it happens all the time. Companies will advertise the have the visa opening to known visa related job fairs, sites, etc.. They will properly interview anyone that applies for the job, but in all honesty, they can hire who they want and record bogus reasons why the others weren't hired. We're in a recession, tech workers are getting laid off like mad, shouldn't the visas be reduced to reflect the new talent market pool? I support the businesses right to do whatever they want, but this law hurts americans.

[RealSchool]

Are you referring to Rush L.? As far as I know he's not a leader of the Rep. party. Don't get me wrong, I don't enjoy his show but the fact he's even in the press about a talk show is kinda of stupid.

When the entire republican party fears him and feels the need to kiss his butt, well that right there tells me he is in charge of their agenda.

[bigboyBlue]

False, my friends have ran into this problem. Yes, it is illegal to do such things in the open, but it happens all the time. Companies will advertise the have the visa opening to known visa related job fairs, sites, etc.. They will properly interview anyone that applies for the job, but in all honesty, they can hire who they want and record bogus reasons why the others weren't hired. We're in a recession, tech workers are getting laid off like mad, shouldn't the visas be reduced to reflect the new talent market pool? I support the businesses right to do whatever they want, but this law hurts americans.

Again, yes it happens, and its possible it happened to your friends. No, in the bigger picture of things, its not the norm.

And if this sudden pool of equally capable tech workers is available, then why would firms hire outside anyway, even without the pressure of reduced visas? Also, FWIW, a lot of those getting laid off are the foreign tech workers, and they're heading back.

[Buzz]

I think everybody agrees that companies can and will save money when they outsource. If Savy IT Company, Inc. bids on and win a contract to provide Big Media Company with computer networking services then that IT company is saving the media company money. Outsourcing is a helluva strategy, and can help to raise GDP.

What companies like Amazon.com is doing is questionable, and let me tell you, there are a lot of service reps that will work for eight bucks an hour, hell a lot of them are working now for ten.....peanuts is peanuts. I've heard of the visas for international tech workers, but I don't understand why a company like Microsoft would push harder for more....with U Dub sitting right there. The over seas thing ain't right for right now. If a company needs a tech there's a ton of MCSAs and CCNAs available....in this country.

[wolverine]

Fortunately, we have Keith Olbermann to point out that Rush Limbaugh did not accurately quote the preamble to the Constitution in his CPAC speech last weekend. I'm not sure what scam Olbermann imagined Rush was trying to put over on the American people by saying conservatives believed in the "preamble to the Constitution" and then quoting words from the Declaration of Independence -- but Olbermann put an end to that cruel deception!

These small-time opportunities to show off by correcting someone else's teeny-tiny mistakes are the lifeblood of Olbermann's MSNBC show, "Countdown." Olbermann is no more capable of not correcting Rep. Charlie Rangel when he said "inferred," but meant "implied," than an obsessive compulsive could pass a sink without washing his hands.

There is utterly no purpose to these lame "gotchas," except that Olbermann is so desperately insecure that he is willing to waste valuable airtime in order to convince other status-conscious idiots that he is, like, scary-smart.

Olbermann relentlessly attacked low-level Bush administration employee Monica Goodling for not going to a name-dropping college, saying -- approximately 1 million times -- that she got her law degree "by sending 100 box tops to Religious Lunatic University."

I would venture to say that the students at Goodling's law school at Regent University are far more impressive than those at the Cornell agriculture school -- the land-grant, non-Ivy League school Keith attended.

I wouldn't mention it, except that Olbermann savages anyone who didn't go to an impressive college. As it happens, he didn't go to an impressive college, either.

If you've ever watched any three nights of his show, you know that Olbermann went to Cornell. But he always forgets to mention that he went to the school that offers classes in milking and bovine management.

Indeed, Keith is constantly lying about his nonexistent "Ivy League" education, boasting to Playboy magazine, for example: "My Ivy League education taught me how to cut corners, skim books and take an idea and write 15 pages on it, and also how to work all day at the Cornell radio station and never actually go to class."

Except Keith didn't go to the Ivy League Cornell; he went to the Old MacDonald Cornell.

The real Cornell, the School of Arts and Sciences (average SAT: 1,325; acceptance rate: 1 in 6 applicants), is the only Ivy League school at Cornell and the only one that grants a Bachelor of Arts degree.

Keith went to an affiliated state college at Cornell, the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences (average SAT: about that of pulling guards at the University of South Carolina; acceptance rate: 1 of every 1.01 applicants).

Olbermann's incessant lying about having an "Ivy League education" when he went to the non-Ivy League ag school at Cornell would be like a graduate of the Yale locksmithing school boasting about being a "Yale man."

Among the graduates of the Ivy League Cornell are Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Thomas Pynchon, Paul Wolfowitz, E.B. White, Sanford I. Weill, Floyd Abrams, Kurt Vonnegut, Douglas Ginsburg, Janet Reno, Henry Heimlich and Harold Bloom.

Graduates of the ag school include David LeNeveu of the Anaheim Ducks, Mitch Carefoot of the Phoenix RoadRunners, Darren Eliot, former professional hockey player, and Joe Nieuwendyk, multiple Stanley Cup winner.

One begins to understand why Harvard students threw a chicken on the ice during Cornell's famous rout of Harvard at a 1973 hockey game.

If you actually want to pursue a career related to agriculture, there is no better school than the Cornell ag school. I have nothing but admiration for the farmers and aspiring veterinarians at the ag school. They didn't go there just to have "Cornell" on their resumes.

In addition to the farmers, there are some smart kids who go to the ag school -- as there are at all state universities. But most people who majored in "communications" at an ag school don't act like Marshall Scholars or go around mocking graduates of Regent University Law School.

The sort of insecurity that would force you to always say "trebled" instead of "tripled" could only come from a communications major with massive status anxiety, like Keith. Without even looking it up, I am confident that Harvard, Yale and Princeton do not offer degrees in "communications." I know there is no "communications" major at the Ivy League Cornell.

"Communications" is a major, along with "recreation science," most commonly associated with linemen at USC. But at least the linemen can throw a football, which Keith cannot because his mother decided he was not physically robust enough to play outdoors as a child.

It may seem cruel to reveal the true college of someone who already wakes up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat worried that he's a fraud. But I believe that by pointing out that Olbermann actually is a fraud, I am liberating him.

You may not realize it now, Keith, but you will look back on this day and say, "That was the best thing that ever happened to me!"

Finally, you can stop pretending that you went to the hard-to-get-into Cornell.

Now you won't have to quickly change the subject whenever people idly remark that they didn't know it was possible to major in "communications" at an Ivy League school.

No longer will you have to aggressively bring up Cornell when it has nothing to do with the conversation.

[bluestimestwo]

I think everybody agrees that companies can and will save money when they outsource. If Savy IT Company, Inc. bids on and win a contract to provide Big Media Company with computer networking services then that IT company is saving the media company money. Outsourcing is a helluva strategy, and can help to raise GDP.

What companies like Amazon.com is doing is questionable, and let me tell you, there are a lot of service reps that will work for eight bucks an hour, hell a lot of them are working now for ten.....peanuts is peanuts. I've heard of the visas for international tech workers, but I don't understand why a company like Microsoft would push harder for more....with U Dub sitting right there. The over seas thing ain't right for right now. If a company needs a tech there's a ton of MCSAs and CCNAs available....in this country.

Our wage rates, tax rates and regulatory structure have priced us out of the market for many different kinds of jobs, particularly in manufacturing. That is the cold, hard truth of the situation. We can either try to restructure our tax code (Fair Tax), simplify our regulatory structure, end special treatments of unions, etc., or we can engage in protectionism. Protectionism is promoted by many as the solution to our problem, but it just leads to trade wars and a reduced standard of living for everybody (Smoot-Hawley, anyone, anyone?). There is no way that people would be able to afford nearly the same lifestyle if all products were produced domestically.

Keep in mind, however, that price competition for wages is most severe in areas where the labor is undifferentiated. Those with unique skills will still be valued in the market. Even some of the CEO's whose companies are struggling still likely have a fairly unique skill set that put them in the role of CEO. Just like QBs in football, good ones are rare and are highly valued by the market. Also like QBs, many are a bust and a waste of money. Rather than trying to force companies to pay a premium for a commoditized labor force, we need to make sure that people develop the kinds of differentiated skill sets that are valued by the marketplace. That, and try to make it appealing for businesses to be located domestically. Demonizing businesses and heaping on additional taxes are not going to accomplish that goal.

[Mike Furley]

I can't wait till the six months of the bottom 95% of taxpayers getting an extra $8 ($13 if you're married) a week ends and then start seeing everything else they buy increase drastically higher in price once Obama, Pelosi, and Reid enact their cap & trade carbon emissions legislation.

This whole global warming crap has been nothing more than a hoax, and now the rabbit gets pulled out of the hat when they tax us to death (indirectly through costs passed on to consumers) when the cap & trade becomes law.

Funny how soaking the rich doesn't really do anything for the bottom of the economic food chain other than let them feel good over how the "rich" now understands their pain.

Obama is Jimmy Carter redux. Enjoy the late 70's again, America.

[michAGAIN]

Enjoy the late 70's again, America.

When we hit bottom it will make the late '70's look like Camelot. I especially admire Obama's "cap and trade" policy which places new additional taxes on independent oil and gas producers. These producers will eat the tax increases and never pass them along to the consumer, so at least we won't be facing higher gasoline and electric bills. I think there are many examples in history that proves you can tax your way out of a depression. I can't find the examples right now, but I'm sure there are plenty out there. Bring on more taxes and watch our economy recover right before your eyes.
(Advice to current students- stay in school and get as many degrees as you can cause it's going to be awhile before the job market opens up)

[BLEEDINGBLUE]

Lets put this in perspective here, It's beginning to look like Obama is a disciple of Osama. Pretty clever, bringing down the US by not firing a shot or any other act of terror. Just spend huge amounts of money, get the dumb ass liberals to elect Obama. And, then Obama puts the country into bankruptcy which disrupts the infrastructure which leads to total chaos and then take over the country. All the while, the liberal idiots smile and cheer while we all take it up the ass. It looks like he's the Manchurian Candidate that succeeded.

[RealSchool]

Moron alert ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[RealSchool]

The great thing about Rush is that he is laughing all the way to the bank. A coworker of mine went to highschool with him and still talks with him maybe 5 times a year. My coworker said growing up he went by Rusty and his dad was a huge conservative. Rush never cared about politics until he learned that he could make a living off it over the radio. As my coworker said, Rusty told him he couldn't care less about conservative ideals he just tells them what they want to hear and they eat it up.

I will always respect a man like Rush that understands the vast majority of Americans are dumb and there is money to be made off that. The ultimate entertainer that has elevated himself as the spokeperson of something he doesn't really care about. Good stuff.

[Blue In Ohio]

With outsourcing and visas lowering the wages for the engineering trades what is the incentive for a young person to study their butt off for years to earn an advanced science degree? These foreigners are coming here and working as scientist in jobs that require a doctorates for 30000 a year. You all know how expensive it is to obtain such a degree. Why would any young person waste their time and money? Our country has a very limited future if more is not done to promote the sciences and protect the jobs. If the USA is going to be the leading super power of the world we have to be strong in engineering otherwise this country is going backwards. Look at manufacturing now. We are capable of producing virtually nothing. Contrary to what the people at the top and policymakers that know nothing about manufacturing think many manufacturing jobs require high skill. If you decide you are going to make steel you have to have someone to design the plant, equipment and then know how to use it. It is not just touch and go. Same goes for machine building which I hate to say it has just about gone extinct. Once these skills are gone it could take 50 or more years to get them back. This stuff is really not as easy as the bean counters and pencil pushers think. We are making a huge mistake by letting our industries crumble so some fat cat billionaire can make a few more bucks. The future of our country and our sovereingty is at stake in the future if this continues. This has to stop.

[Sten Carlson]

The great thing about Rush is that he is laughing all the way to the bank. A coworker of mine went to highschool with him and still talks with him maybe 5 times a year. My coworker said growing up he went by Rusty and his dad was a huge conservative. Rush never cared about politics until he learned that he could make a living off it over the radio. As my coworker said, Rusty told him he couldn't care less about conservative ideals he just tells them what they want to hear and they eat it up.

I will always respect a man like Rush that understands the vast majority of Americans are dumb and there is money to be made off that. The ultimate entertainer that has elevated himself as the spokeperson of something he doesn't really care about. Good stuff.

How can you respect that type of deceitful and hypocritical behavior? Further, how can you sit back and relish in the vast majority of Americans are "dumb"? You're a sorry excuse for an American if that is really the way that you feel!

Rush is a sack of shit! He is a mouthpiece put into place as part of a massive Co-Intel-Pro program designed to further polarize Americans along political lines that are actually non-existent. He's a drug addicted, fat, money-grubbing boot-licker that has no soul -- and this is a man you profess respect?

Money is your King, and when shit hits the fan, there are a lot of people just like you that will be more than willing to sell out their neighbors and family for a few extra Dollars (or Amero) -- you've fallen head over heals for the ultimate carrot on a stick! They own it all, you realize that right? You own NOTHING -- not your children, not your house, not even your own body! You've spent most of your life chasing a fiction, and you respect people that have used lies and deceit to gather a lot of worthless paper (or numbers on a computer screen) around themselves.

Your soul crushing greed shows through in your posts and it makes me want to puke!

You laugh at the fact that American have been dumbed down over the past three decades, as if it's the punch line of a joke. You fail to realize that you're on the ship too! All those millions of uninformed, Idol watching, Diet Coke swilling people you laugh are that way by design, and their downfall is going to create a momentum that is impossible to resist. Yet you think it's "good stuff" that an opportunist like Rush comes along and spreads propaganda to further and hasten the destruction of our once great Republic!

Shame on you!

[RealSchool]

This coming from someone in law school ^^^^^^^^

[Sten Carlson]

This coming from someone in law school ^^^^^^^^

What is that supposed to mean?

You don't know my reasons for going to law school. Because you're consumed with greed, you just assume that my motives are to enrich myself, because that is what your motive would be -- how typical!

The Rule of Law is THE keystone of our Republic, and I believe that greed has usurped the Rule of Law, and we're seeing it in action everyday with the bailouts, the ponzie schemes, the fleecing of American workers and taxpayers, and greed MUST BE STOPPED, and the RULE of LAW must be returned to our Republic.

Judges are committing gross misconduct, banks commit fraud and predatory lending practices daily, politician lie and steal with impunity, and the office of the President thinks that it is above the law and is authorized to dictate policy through executive order and secret memorandum. That is NOT the rule of law.

So please, don't sit there and try to paint my intentions with broad strokes in an effort to deflect the harsh light of scrutiny from you on to me -- my intentions are pure, and of the highest patriotic character!

[RealSchool]

Ha HA. You have some growing up to do. You are nothing but an ambulance chaser, you just don't know it yet.

Good luck fighting those speeding tickets in court, that will be your job for about the first 5 years. How is that for your ideals?

[Sten Carlson]

Ha HA. You have some growing up to do. You are nothing but an ambulance chaser, you just don't know it yet.

Good luck fighting those speeding tickets in court, that will be your job for about the first 5 years. How is that for your ideals?

I have some growing up to do huh? Whatever do you mean?

Funny how people sycophants like you always fall back on the, "Oh grow up!" response when they know they have nothing intelligent to say.

[RealSchool]

I have an unpaid parking ticket I want to fight, can you fly up for your first case? Might as well get some expereince now.

[Sten Carlson]

I have an unpaid parking ticket I want to fight, can you fly up for your first case? Might as well get some expereince now.

You're an asshole!

Worse still, you (like the OSU trolls) never addressed what I had said concerning your respect and admiration for Rush -- you simply come back with insults and a change of the subject. Then, when I explain my reasons for attending law school, you mock me further and never address any of the issues I raised. You're a vacuous blow-hard that has no soul, and you're going to find out just how powerless you really are in the months and years to come!

Have fun in the FEMA Camp!

[blueisbetterthanred]

Regarding Rush... it really troubles me that so many people listen to this guy for guidance. The fact that Americans have not woken up to the fallacy of the two party system being 2 faces of the same monster is the only reason this guy exists.

Regarding the FEMA camps... most people laugh the idea off. They don't realize these things are built for a reason, not just as a precaution. Razor wire facing in, red/green zone signs already UP, 500,000 multiple-body coffins stacked up in Georgia.. what more does it take for people to WAKE UP??!

I give you credit Sten for being in law school and being aware of what is going on, I hope you do some good.

[Sten Carlson]

Regarding Rush... it really troubles me that so many people listen to this guy for guidance. The fact that Americans have not woken up to the fallacy of the two party system being 2 faces of the same monster is the only reason this guy exists.

Regarding the FEMA camps... most people laugh the idea off. They don't realize these things are built for a reason, not just as a precaution. Razor wire facing in, red/green zone signs already UP, 500,000 multiple-body coffins stacked up in Georgia.. what more does it take for people to WAKE UP??!

I give you credit Sten for being in law school and being aware of what is going on, I hope you do some good.

Thank you blueisbetterthanred! I just hope that I am not too late!

Most people do laugh dark and ominous things like that off as nonsense -- and we've seen throughout history, these are the same people that will sit on their hands and do nothing once the truth is apparent, and the same people that will say that were unaware of what was going on after the fact. Those that seek to control us need us to be passive, disarmed, and distracted at all times.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson

[bigboyBlue]

I love how since the trolls went into hibernation this is all we've talked about. Great discussion y'all, but there's plenty around me at work and at home to argue about this stuff. I'm heading back to football, or bball.

[Buzz]

Lets put this in perspective here, It's beginning to look like Obama is a disciple of Osama. Pretty clever, bringing down the US by not firing a shot or any other act of terror. Just spend huge amounts of money, get the dumb ass liberals to elect Obama. And, then Obama puts the country into bankruptcy which disrupts the infrastructure which leads to total chaos and then take over the country. All the while, the liberal idiots smile and cheer while we all take it up the ass. It looks like he's the Manchurian Candidate that succeeded.

That's a foolish statment you made, BB.

You should be mad at the last administration. Look taxes are not what's hurting this country. The high prices for fuel is really what sent this country rolling downhill.

It seems like you have a really short memory....go get some facts, then come back with some credibility.

[Silver Bullet]

I love how since the trolls went into hibernation this is all we've talked about. Great discussion y'all, but there's plenty around me at work and at home to argue about this stuff. I'm heading back to football, or bball.

Reading this has been way more enjoyable and educational than any discussion I've ever been apart of. It's nice to know that people's intolerance extends way beyond sports. Man, a difference of opinion on this site is grounds for all-out war.

[tpilews]

That's a foolish statment you made, BB.

You should be mad at the last administration. Look taxes are not what's hurting this country. The high prices for fuel is really what sent this country rolling downhill.

It seems like you have a really short memory....go get some facts, then come back with some credibility.

Taxes aren't hurting our economy? Please, you can't be serious. You raise a business's taxes, they pass it on to the employee. You're not hurting the man up top, or the business, just the common employee.

Obama's administration wants to add another $0.10 tax increase on gas. So much for NOT raising 95% of the people's taxes. If Obama raises taxes, watch how bad the economy gets.

Fair Tax, you buy shit, you pay tax. You don't buy shit, you don't pay taxes. How much "illegal" money is out there that the government can't get their hands on?

[tpilews]

That's a foolish statment you made, BB.
The high prices for fuel is really what sent this country rolling downhill.

Or people not paying their mortgages because they took out more than they could afford.

[tpilews]

When we hit bottom it will make the late '70's look like Camelot. I especially admire Obama's "cap and trade" policy which places new additional taxes on independent oil and gas producers. These producers will eat the tax increases and never pass them along to the consumer, so at least we won't be facing higher gasoline and electric bills. I think there are many examples in history that proves you can tax your way out of a depression. I can't find the examples right now, but I'm sure there are plenty out there. Bring on more taxes and watch our economy recover right before your eyes.
(Advice to current students- stay in school and get as many degrees as you can cause it's going to be awhile before the job market opens up)

Well said, michAGAIN.

That's where I'm at currently. Already graduated with a business degree, job market sucks ass, plus I don't want to be in sales = no job. I'm back in school getting an engineering degree, the one I should have gotten in the first place. In about two years, I'll be done. This is going to work out pretty well for me. The housing market should be around rock bottom, so I'll be able to get into a nice house for a good price. The equity on the house alone over the next 10-15 years is going to be great. Let's just hope the economy starts to turn around a bit.

[Silver Bullet]

Taxes aren't hurting our economy? Please, you can't be serious. You raise a business's taxes, they pass it on to the employee. You're not hurting the man up top, or the business, just the common employee.

Obama's administration wants to add another $0.10 tax increase on gas. So much for NOT raising 95% of the people's taxes. If Obama raises taxes, watch how bad the economy gets.

Fair Tax, you buy shit, you pay tax. You don't buy shit, you don't pay taxes. How much "illegal" money is out there that the government can't get their hands on?

Oh my God!!! A $0.10 tax hike?! With my 15 gallon tank, that's an extra $1.50 a week and about an extra $72 a year out of my pocket! And all that is go to funding the government that keeps us safe and secure. I say we revolt! People that are complaining about this petty crap but had no problem with all the crap that Bush pulled are great. It doesn't matter what Obama does, you are going to hate him. But you're right, instead of trying to fix the country Obama should drive it further into the ground. Let's all just bury our heads.....

[tpilews]

Oh my God!!! A $0.10 tax hike?! With my 15 gallon tank, that's an extra $1.50 a week and about an extra $72 a year out of my pocket! And all that is go to funding the government that keeps us safe and secure. I say we revolt! People that are complaining about this petty crap but had no problem with all the crap that Bush pulled are great. It doesn't matter what Obama does, you are going to hate him. But you're right, instead of trying to fix the country Obama should drive it further into the ground. Let's all just bury our heads.....

Maybe you wouldn't mind paying mine then? I have to drive a lot because nothing is close by in Fla. I drive about 300 miles every 4 days. That's around $130/year for me. That'll pay the water bill for one month.

That $0.10 tax raise is on top of the almost $0.53/gallon I pay already in taxes on gas. Somebody 20 years ago said the same thing you just said. Add $0.10 here, add $0.10 there. In another 20 years, we'll be paying more than $1.00 in taxes on gas. It all adds up.

[Silver Bullet]

Maybe you wouldn't mind paying mine then? I have to drive a lot because nothing is close by in Fla. I drive about 300 miles every 4 days. That's around $130/year for me. That'll pay the water bill for one month.

That $0.10 tax raise is on top of the almost $0.53/gallon I pay already in taxes on gas. Somebody 20 years ago said the same thing you just said. Add $0.10 here, add $0.10 there. In another 20 years, we'll be paying more than $1.00 in taxes on gas. It all adds up.

Or we could work on finding alternative energy sources to avoid that. Of course, nobody wants to think about investing in the science to make this happen because we may have to pay an extra dime for gas NOW. It's also not important that this research and technology could put people back to work. But that may all be a little too forward thinking...it's easier to b!tch and complain.

[tpilews]

Or we could work on finding alternative energy sources to avoid that. Of course, nobody wants to think about investing in the science to make this happen because we may have to pay an extra dime for gas NOW. It's also not important that this research and technology could put people back to work. But that may all be a little too forward thinking...it's easier to b!tch and complain.

Show me where it says the extra $0.10 will be used for R&D for alternative energy. I'm all for alternative energy, but isn't there already a bunch of money set aside for alternative energy in the stimulus?

[Sten Carlson]

Show me where it says the extra $0.10 will be used for R&D for alternative energy. I'm all for alternative energy, but isn't there already a bunch of money set aside for alternative energy in the stimulus?

We're not allowed to have "alternative" energy -- I mean the real alternative energy -- because it would set us free!

Read about Tesla -- he had allegedly developed an antenna that can extract electricity directly from the atmosphere, no wires, no fuel source needed to drive dynamos. Tesla stated that he wanted to set humanity free from the yoke of having to pay for electricity! That was at a time when our society wasn't nearly as dependent upon the grid as it is today. In addition, there have been rumors for decades about the existence of magnetic propulsion systems, cold fusion, and other such energy systems deemed impossible by the establishment. Like many of Tesla's patents, these systems are supposedly locked away and never released to the public as it would give us too much freedom.

There is no doubt that the internal combustion engine is a very inefficient and antiquated system, and one that is, at least to my mind, undoubtedly been keep in a position of preeminence to restrict and subjugate humanity.

I am a conspiracy guy though, and I believe 100% in the doctrine that "truth is stranger than fiction."

[RealSchool]

We're not allowed to have "alternative" energy -- I mean the real alternative energy -- because it would set us free!

Read about Tesla -- he had allegedly developed an antenna that can extract electricity directly from the atmosphere, no wires, no fuel source needed to drive dynamos. Tesla stated that he wanted to set humanity free from the yoke of having to pay for electricity! That was at a time when our society wasn't nearly as dependent upon the grid as it is today. In addition, there have been rumors for decades about the existence of magnetic propulsion systems, cold fusion, and other such energy systems deemed impossible by the establishment. Like many of Tesla's patents, these systems are supposedly locked away and never released to the public as it would give us too much freedom.

There is no doubt that the internal combustion engine is a very inefficient and antiquated system, and one that is, at least to my mind, undoubtedly been keep in a position of preeminence to restrict and subjugate humanity.

I am a conspiracy guy though, and I believe 100% in the doctrine that "truth is stranger than fiction."

Have you ever thought of keeping your posts under 5000 words?

[Silver Bullet]

Show me where it says the extra $0.10 will be used for R&D for alternative energy. I'm all for alternative energy, but isn't there already a bunch of money set aside for alternative energy in the stimulus?

Well, I know this because I've been paying attention but here is an article since you don't believe me...
http://www.jelantah.com/2009/01/stimulus-bill-pushes-renewable-energy/

That is where the money is going and the tax increase would be a way to subsidize the research. It's really not complicated provided you subscribe to the philosophy that you have to spend money to make money.

[Silver Bullet]

Show me where it says the extra $0.10 will be used for R&D for alternative energy. I'm all for alternative energy, but isn't there already a bunch of money set aside for alternative energy in the stimulus?

By the way, the tax increase you keep bringing up is a measure that is being proposed to and considered by Congress. Obama is the President.

[tpilews]

Well, I know this because I've been paying attention but here is an article since you don't believe me...
http://www.jelantah.com/2009/01/stimulus-bill-pushes-renewable-energy/

That is where the money is going and the tax increase would be a way to subsidize the research. It's really not complicated provided you subscribe to the philosophy that you have to spend money to make money.

That's the stimulus bill, not the $0.10 gas tax you brushed off as "nothing". I know the stimulus bill calls for alternative energy. This is one place where I think America should be spending more money.

If I had the money, I would have already had a bunch of solar panels on my roof hooked up to the grid.

My argument is that it's really bad timing to be adding ANY tax increases on an already burdened economy. If you want to inject money into the market, put more money in the hands of the consumer. Not by welfare checks, but by cutting taxes across the board.

I'm a believer in small government. The people are what made this country great and what will make it great once again, not the government.

[tpilews]

We're not allowed to have "alternative" energy -- I mean the real alternative energy -- because it would set us free!

Read about Tesla -- he had allegedly developed an antenna that can extract electricity directly from the atmosphere, no wires, no fuel source needed to drive dynamos. Tesla stated that he wanted to set humanity free from the yoke of having to pay for electricity! That was at a time when our society wasn't nearly as dependent upon the grid as it is today. In addition, there have been rumors for decades about the existence of magnetic propulsion systems, cold fusion, and other such energy systems deemed impossible by the establishment. Like many of Tesla's patents, these systems are supposedly locked away and never released to the public as it would give us too much freedom.

There is no doubt that the internal combustion engine is a very inefficient and antiquated system, and one that is, at least to my mind, undoubtedly been keep in a position of preeminence to restrict and subjugate humanity.

I am a conspiracy guy though, and I believe 100% in the doctrine that "truth is stranger than fiction."

I've done some reading on Tesla. They are doing some exciting things with cars. 200+ horsepower and ft/lbs of torque and still not using a single drop of gas for 200 some miles.

I'm also a fan of Loremo. Check out the LS. 157 mpg out of a turbo diesel. 800 miles per tank (5.3 gallons). Just sick.

[Silver Bullet]

...Not by welfare checks, but by cutting taxes across the board....

Yep, because the tax cuts of the last 8 years of worked out so great right? I like how Republicans are now all economic scholars. They don't know how to avoid putting this country in a financial hole, but man do they know how to solve it.

[Mich97c]

This has been a very good thread. My opinion is - what role should government play in a capitalist society? The US in my opinion plays the role of a parent. Think about it - as a child we rely on our parent to bail us out of messes. When things are going great, they are so proud. When we can't pay our bills, we ask them for money. This is exactly what we are in right now.

In 1999 thru 2000 the market saw returns that were unreal - typically the stock market returned 8.0% on a 30 year average. Over the time of 1998 -2000 it return well over 50%. It was pure speculation and greed - something people throughout history (in the US and everywhere) are preprogrammed flawed about. What resulted? A stock market crash. A crash that should of sent us into a recession. Then in 2001, we had the worst terrorist attack in history. This should have sent us into a depression. Instead what happened? The fed cut rates to prevent this to a point where people refinanced like crazy. The demand for mortgage back securities from investors (both nationally and intentionally) brought about a surplus of credit to everyone. This excess in liquidity and new sense of making a quick buck created a boom in real estate - one the Fed supported because it prevented a recession. The result was home prices which appreciated at a 3.0% rate jumped into the 28% range. Add to that the leverage these securities were used to borrow additional capital plus the C.D.O’s (a completely unregulated market which no one still has their hands around in terms of actual value) and a bust was coming in this market also. What amazes me is when market deviate from the mean so wildly, why does no one think a correction will happen?

So this is where we are. The real estate market around the world has crashed. Meaning the mortgage backed securities have no bid on them (meaning no wants to buy them). Banks have to mark to market every quarter, which means every 3 months they have to put out an earnings statement which says what they own and what its worth in today's environment. If they have a pool of mortgages they bought for 1.00 a share and the current price is only .20, they haven't actually lost money because they don't have to sell, but on their balance sheet it looks like they lost .80. These securities are bonds and will mature at face value as long as the pool of mortgage borrowers pays on time. Considering that only 10% of the nation is actually in default means most of these will get to around .90. But the mark to market rules means companies are showing extreme losses. That reduces capital ratios and means their new debt is more expensive.

I don't know the answer to fix this. Honestly, between the two candidates I did not think either had a good plan. The government is not knowledgeable enough to handle Wall Street - they can barely handle themselves. If you fear nationalization of the banks - they were already half nationalized with preferred rates from the fed and FDIC insurance. What I hate is the indecisive in this Stimulus plan - every time they do something and it doesn't immediately work then they change. It comes down to - do you let capitalism fix itself and ruin lives sending us into a full blown depression with the hope the next generation will be better off or patch it together to scrap by? I don't know the answer.

Sorry for the rant.

[tpilews]

Yep, because the tax cuts of the last 8 years of worked out so great right? I like how Republicans are now all economic scholars. They don't know how to avoid putting this country in a financial hole, but man do they know how to solve it.

52 months of job growth until the dems took over congress.

[Swoosh]

Yep, because the tax cuts of the last 8 years of worked out so great right? I like how Republicans are now all economic scholars. They don't know how to avoid putting this country in a financial hole, but man do they know how to solve it.

First of all this current issue was cause by de-regulation. Tax Cuts had nothing to do with it.

Three of the last 4 recession used tax cuts and it worked.

When people figure out this was more a life stlye issue than a party(Rep or Dem) we will be on our way back a bit.

As Newt said "We cannot have capitilism on the way up and socialism on the way down"

[Silver Bullet]

52 months of job growth until the dems took over congress.

They couldn't hire people fast enough to build the houses that nobody could afford!

[Swoosh]

They couldn't hire people fast enough to build the houses that nobody could afford!


Exactly and how the heck does "tax cuts" fall into what you just said?

[Silver Bullet]

First of all this current issue was cause by de-regulation. Tax Cuts had nothing to do with it.

Three of the last 4 recession used tax cuts and it worked.

When people figure out this was more a life stlye issue than a party(Rep or Dem) we will be on our way back a bit.

As Newt said "We cannot have capitilism on the way up and socialism on the way down"

That is exactly the problem! The Republicans deregulated Wall Street and now the Democrats have to tax to fix it. The stereotypes of both groups are thriving and that is how the system is set-up. In 8 years we will have survived this crisis and a Republican will run on a platform of change...deregulation and lower taxes. People will have forgotten about this mess..we'll elect the Republican and the whole cycle starts again. Right or wrong, that's how Washington works.

[Silver Bullet]

Exactly and how the heck does "tax cuts" fall into what you just said?

Because everyone was building a house thanks to the record-low mortgage rates...aka the reason we are in this mess.

[tpilews]

Yep, because the tax cuts of the last 8 years of worked out so great right? I like how Republicans are now all economic scholars. They don't know how to avoid putting this country in a financial hole, but man do they know how to solve it.

You're starting to sound like Obama. "The last 8 years..... the last 8 years...... the last administration....... the last 8 years."

[Silver Bullet]

You're starting to sound like Obama. "The last 8 years..... the last 8 years...... the last administration....... the last 8 years."

I guess that's an insult? Ever think that maybe he's right?

[tpilews]

I guess that's an insult? Ever think that maybe he's right?

Nope (10 character limit).

[Sten Carlson]

Ever think that maybe he's right?

If he were right, he'd be handing out indictments like Halloween candy for all the illegal and unconstitutional bullshit the previous administration pulled. He'd be convening a War Crimes Tribunal to bring to justice the mass murders who orchestrated the genocidal wars on the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, and he'd be trying to bring about a solution to the financial crisis we're in, instead of throwing gasoline on the already raging fire.

He's not going to do any of that, as that is not the role he was put into office to play. He is a puppet of the banks that want our nation, and is NEVER going to do anything for our benefit.

[Silver Bullet]

If he were right, he'd be handing out indictments like Halloween candy for all the illegal and unconstitutional bullshit the previous administration pulled. He'd be convening a War Crimes Tribunal to bring to justice the mass murders who orchestrated the genocidal wars on the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, and he'd be trying to bring about a solution to the financial crisis we're in, instead of throwing gasoline on the already raging fire.

He's not going to do any of that, as that is not the role he was put into office to play. He is a puppet of the banks that want our nation, and is NEVER going to do anything for our benefit.

I don't think doing any of that is going to help us economically and that is (as it should be) is his top priority.

[Sten Carlson]

I don't think doing any of that is going to help us economically and that is (as it should be) is his top priority.

Don't kid yourself, he's not doing anything that is going to fix anything! Everything that he and Congress are doing is being handed to them by the Banksters, in an effort to bring about a controlled demolition of the American Economy.

If he really wanted to fix the problem his first act as President should have been the disbanding of the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve and their collection agency the IRS, the jailing of Paulson, Bernake, Greenspan, and their henchmen, and a return to a Constitutional debt-free currency.

But, he's not going to bite the hand that put him in office! And we all know what happened to the last President that had signed an executive order disbanding the Fed, don't we?

[Buzz]

Taxes never held this country back from moving forward. The corporate tax rate in this country is approximately 35%....among the highest of all well established countries. But equipment bought and expenses spent in an effort to conduct business is subtracted from the gross amount. Building and vehicle depreciation brings down the DBL lined figure. Property and state taxes are deductible to include the gas tax at the state level, then it's time to pay. Taxes don't run firms out of business.

If you look back to the Bush tax cuts, production increased, slightly but jobs were starting to get cut. The real problem came when gas prices rose out of the roof, creating inflation.....this is what ran companies out of business, and people into foreclosure or into bankruptcy. And the deregulation schemes of the Bush administration is what helped companies like Worldcom steal, and sent the stock and financial markets rolling downhill....fast. This all happened under Bush, not too long ago, I know people haven't forgotten that quickly. These are facts.

Our government has spent more money over the past eight years than any other in history, and it spent money very irresponsibly. A big chunk of the money has and is being spent in Iraq....a war fought over false pretenses, what a shame.

What happened at VT was terrible...but multiply that by 3 or 4,in every region of the country...daily, cause that's what is happening and has happen in Iraq for the last 6 years.

Bush is responsible for all of this nonsense....and yet people want to try, and somehow blame President Obama.....remarkable.

[Silver Bullet]

Don't kid yourself, he's not doing anything that is going to fix anything! Everything that he and Congress are doing is being handed to them by the Banksters, in an effort to bring about a controlled demolition of the American Economy.

If he really wanted to fix the problem his first act as President should have been the disbanding of the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve and their collection agency the IRS, the jailing of Paulson, Bernake, Greenspan, and their henchmen, and a return to a Constitutional debt-free currency.

But, he's not going to bite the hand that put him in office! And we all know what happened to the last President that had signed an executive order disbanding the Fed, don't we?

I do admire your way of thinking. Take the position that is the most extreme and least likely to happen. That way you can always say that it is right and you can never be proven wrong. I'm not sure how jailing people that are now private citizens is going to solve anything. Conspiracy theorists are great because they give the government so much credit. These morons couldn't work together to pull off some hoax or cover up if there lives depended on it.

[tpilews]

Taxes never held this country back from moving forward. The corporate tax rate in this country is approximately 35%....among the highest of all well established countries. But equipment bought and expenses spent in an effort to conduct business is subtracted from the gross amount. Building and vehicle depreciation brings down the DBL lined figure. Property and state taxes are deductible to include the gas tax at the state level, then it's time to pay. Taxes don't run firms out of business.

If you look back to the Bush tax cuts, production increased, slightly but jobs were starting to get cut. The real problem came when gas prices rose out of the roof, creating inflation.....this is what ran companies out of business, and people into foreclosure or into bankruptcy. And the deregulation schemes of the Bush administration is what helped companies like Worldcom steal, and sent the stock and financial markets rolling downhill....fast. This all happened under Bush, not too long ago, I know people haven't forgotten that quickly. These are facts.

Our government has spent more money over the past eight years than any other in history, and it spent money very irresponsibly. A big chunk of the money has and is being spent in Iraq....a war fought over false pretenses, what a shame.

What happened at VT was terrible...but multiply that by 3 or 4,in every region of the country...daily, cause that's what is happening and has happen in Iraq for the last 6 years.

Bush is responsible for all of this nonsense....and yet people want to try, and somehow blame President Obama.....remarkable.

Money spent for war in Iraq in 2008: around $75 billion
Money spent for welfare in the US in 2008: around $350 billion

[Buzz]

Money spent for war in Iraq in 2008: around $75 billion
Money spent for welfare in the US in 2008: around $350 billion

Last year close to $90 billion was spent for the war in Iraq, about $700 billion over the entire 6 years....money spent all over a great big lie.

For the fiscal year '09 welfare funds will be a lot higher than in '08 when you throw in the corporate welfare bill.

Not sure why you responded to me with those stats....why don't explain to me what your intentions were by posting those stats in response to me...please.

[BLEEDINGBLUE]

I am just glad that the guy who makes $12k a year behind a McDonalds counter was able to buy a $500k house. I'm even happier that now, as I struggle to make my mortgage payments, I get to help him out by paying his. Plus, the government is going to lower his Interest rate while mine stays the same. Lets keep giving to those who spend & lie irrisponsibly and keep expecting the Govt, to bale them out cuz they know they will. This country is about to become the biggest pussy on earth!

[tpilews]

Last year close to $90 billion was spent for the war in Iraq, about $700 billion over the entire 6 years....money spent all over a great big lie.

For the fiscal year '09 welfare funds will be a lot higher than in '08 when you throw in the corporate welfare bill.

Not sure why you responded to me with those stats....why don't explain to me what your intentions were by posting those stats in response to me...please.

I was responding to this:


A big chunk of the money has and is being spent in Iraq....a war fought over false pretenses, what a shame.

Everyone bitches about money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan yet that number pales in comparison to welfare. If people lived within their means, that could get rid of half of the welfare system by itself. How many thugs do you see riding around with $4,000 set of wheels for their car, and have 5 kids, and is on welfare. It's time that people start taking responsibility for their actions and not relying on the government to bail them out.

[Columbusisawhore]

Everyone bitches about money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan yet that number pales in comparison to welfare. If people lived within their means, that could get rid of half of the welfare system by itself.

Amen to that... Look. I'll vote for the first candidate (regardless of party) who plans to do the following two things:

1. Put a spending freeze in place while a set of economic professionals review the national budget and trim the unneeded fat throughout the government and retool the budget.

Bottom line is we are spending too much money as a country on outdated and unnecessary programs and special interests. ear marks, etc are rampant in every bill and spending is out of control.

2. Institute welfare as SUPPLEMENTAL INCOME. By this i mean if someone is physically able to work, they will work or they won't receive any aid PERIOD. Set a reasonable minimum income (30k for example sake). So a person who gets a job at McDonalds and makes 12k per year would be supplemented the other 18k to maintain a reasonable amount of income.

I'm tired of people sitting at home on their ass doing nothing but collect a welfare check paid for by MY hard earned money. I work for a living and if you're physically able to work, you should work. If you don't work, you get NOTHING.

[The Michigan Man]

I was responding to this:



Everyone bitches about money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan yet that number pales in comparison to welfare. If people lived within their means, that could get rid of half of the welfare system by itself. How many thugs do you see riding around with $4,000 set of wheels for their car, and have 5 kids, and is on welfare. It's time that people start taking responsibility for their actions and not relying on the government to bail them out.

Barry Hussein has committed to spend more money in his first 2 months as President then Bush spent on the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on Hurricane Katrina Recovery COMBINED. You dummies wanted change, here's your change...

[rickyleach]

michigan man, you said it like it is, the jurys is still out on B/O, but i have a hunch he will go down as the worst president this cuntry has ever known, but i will say he might be the only president EVER that i wouldnt mind spending the day with and drinking a few beers and shootin the bull. i hate to say it but this country hasnt hit the hard times yet, i dont live in michigan anymore ,but it wont be long b/4 the state is leading the nation on people moving , ohio is bad enough , but michigan is falling apart.

[Buzz]

I was responding to this:



Everyone bitches about money being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan yet that number pales in comparison to welfare. If people lived within their means, that could get rid of half of the welfare system by itself. How many thugs do you see riding around with $4,000 set of wheels for their car, and have 5 kids, and is on welfare. It's time that people start taking responsibility for their actions and not relying on the government to bail them out.

Not Afghanistan, cause incidentally, we need more spending for Afghan. I'm talking about Iraq. And it's not just the money alone that's the problem, it's the decision to go into Iraq....the big time lies, and it's the bad tatics, and the unorganized fashion of this conflict. Bush never added the war spending to his budget, this is why you saw all the mishaps with the hospitals, and the lack of equipment for soldiers in country. This is part of what makes the spending and the war overall an abomination.

Speaking of welfare spending and the war spending is like comparing apples to sunglasses...two totally different strategies used there. I agree about welfare, but when you look at how the corporations spent their welfare check...on bonuses, airplanes, vacations, and pussy it's similar to how a lot of the idiot households spent their welfare check, on beer, videogames, and chrome wheels.

I gave a brief overview on how our tax system works, taxes don't run firms out of business. In the year 2000, a barrel of oil costs $28, in '08 the price of that same barrel of oil rose to extreme levels, increasing in cost by over
400%. This is what hurt the economy, and ran firms out of business. The prices saw its steepest incline during the invasion of Iraq. The last administration is responsible for all of this crap. Bush is the worst president in the entire history of this country. It's going to take the current administration to help fix this.

[osusteve]

Before the Iraq invasion, the Bush administration argued that oil revenue from Iraq would pay for the cost of the mission. That never happened.

Halliburton Corporation, formerly a Dallas, Texas based company headed by Dick Cheney before he became VP under Bush, was the recipient of millions of dollars of no bid Iraqi reconstruction contracts from the Bush regime before they moved their headquarters to Dubai. Oh, I forgot to mention that Cheney got a $35 million dollar severence package from Halliburton after he stepped down and became VP.

Now, Bush has a 10,000 square foot office (paid for by the federal government) in North Dallas and has two Dallas police cars following the contingent of secret service vehicles that follow him everywhere he goes.

[LAMfan]

Barry Hussein has committed to spend more money in his first 2 months as President then Bush spent on the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and on Hurricane Katrina Recovery COMBINED. You dummies wanted change, here's your change...

Ya right. Are suggesting Obama is spending the money, well, just because he is a liberal Democrat? How about because everyone who thoughtfully comments on the f-ing mess says the way to avoid a rerun of the great depression is to put money into banks and the system. In fact, many argue that we are not spending enough. Now, I am not one to say the Demss had no prior responsibility for this mess, but to not acknowledge the role your beloved Republicans played in this mess, and to simply point to Obama as the choice of dummies reveals a lot about you. Bash opposing points of view, and the people that espouse them, whether it is politics or M football. You should have been an executive in the Big 3, guiding their strategy of selling into a dinosaur market of SUVs and light trucks. Oh yeah, the demise of GM has nothing to do with management, just the workers fault. Open your eyes M man, there's plenty of blame to go around and your right wing hatred is thankfully fading into the minority.

[The Michigan Man]

Ya right. Are suggesting Obama is spending the money, well, just because he is a liberal Democrat? How about because everyone who thoughtfully comments on the f-ing mess says the way to avoid a rerun of the great depression is to put money into banks and the system. In fact, many argue that we are not spending enough. Now, I am not one to say the Demss had no prior responsibility for this mess, but to not acknowledge the role your beloved Republicans played in this mess, and to simply point to Obama as the choice of dummies reveals a lot about you. Bash opposing points of view, and the people that espouse them, whether it is politics or M football. You should have been an executive in the Big 3, guiding their strategy of selling into a dinosaur market of SUVs and light trucks. Oh yeah, the demise of GM has nothing to do with management, just the workers fault. Open your eyes M man, there's plenty of blame to go around and your right wing hatred is thankfully fading into the minority.

Yes, I am suggesting that.

Wrecklessly throwing money at a problem does not fix it. This stimulus package is garbage - only 20% of it goes into effect within the next 18 months. The economy needs immediate and targeted help, not a bunch of ridiculous earmarks and special interest spending that goes to such stupidity as honey bee research, STD research, climate control research, metro park expansions, etc.

A big reason for the economic straits were in is the failure of Congress to oversee the housing market - who has been in control of Congress most of the last decade? democRATS.

This country needs tax cuts, for everyone, including small business and capital gains. It is liberal arrogance to think that because someone gets employed by the government they all the sudden become experts on how we should all spend our money. That is socialism / communism - the government machine dictates who gets what, not the free market. That's what we're in for for at least the next 3 yrs 10 mths

[Mike Furley]

Here's a thought:

if the government is going to blow a trillion dollars on "stimulus" that is nothing more than political payback and pork.....

....instead just suspend federal income taxes for one year.

its the same amount.

which one would better help people pay their mortgages? or go out and buy american cars? or invest?

nope. gotta be the honey bee research, std research, and money for ACORN.

[tpilews]

Speaking of welfare spending and the war spending is like comparing apples to sunglasses...two totally different strategies used there. I agree about welfare, but when you look at how the corporations spent their welfare check...on bonuses, airplanes, vacations, and pussy it's similar to how a lot of the idiot households spent their welfare check, on beer, videogames, and chrome wheels.


I think you just made my point for me with that statement. Cut back government. Let capitalism do its thing.

[osusteve]

Here in Texas, while Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (REPUBLICAN) was urging her colleagues to trim wasteful spending from the $410 billion bill, she also happened to be the state's biggest sponsor of earmarks (approximately $152.9/million).

How ironic...

[tpilews]

Here's a thought:

if the government is going to blow a trillion dollars on "stimulus" that is nothing more than political payback and pork.....

....instead just suspend federal income taxes for one year.

its the same amount.

which one would better help people pay their mortgages? or go out and buy american cars? or invest?

nope. gotta be the honey bee research, std research, and money for ACORN.

Very nice Furley. Sounds like a great idea. Too bad it'd never happen.

[tpilews]

Here in Texas, while Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (REPUBLICAN) was urging her colleagues to trim wasteful spending from the $410 billion bill, she also happened to be the state's biggest sponsor of earmarks (approximately $152.9/million).

How ironic...

$30 million for wetlands restoration to protect the endangered salt marsh harvest mouse.
http://newsbusters.org/static/2007/07/2007-07-11NancyPelosi.jpg

$650 million for the digital TV converter-box coupons.

$1 billion for administrative costs and construction of National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration office buildings




President Obama boasts that the stimulus plan contains no earmarks because Congress technically did not use the earmark process for lawmakers to request and drop in specific spending items. Hahahahahha, what a joke.

[tpilews]

Here in Texas, while Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison (REPUBLICAN) was urging her colleagues to trim wasteful spending from the $410 billion bill, she also happened to be the state's biggest sponsor of earmarks (approximately $152.9/million).

How ironic...

Here's some nice reading material for you (http://www.legistorm.com/earmarks/details/member/416/Rep_Nancy_Pelosi/page/1/sort/amount/type/desc.html). Pelosi: 54 earmark requests in 2008 totaling $144 million

[wolverine]

put that pic of pelsoi on a stick and stick it out in the corn feild....it would make a great scarecrow

[Buzz]

I think you just made my point for me with that statement. Cut back government. Let capitalism do its thing.

No I didn't make your point for you. What thing is capitalism supposed to do? Hell, my whole point was that taxes don't run firms out of business. You gotta start reading a bit better than that. Listen, capitalism and the market are both intangible items, they don't do anything. Intermediaries create money, (I'm not talking about the printing of cash) and people make transactions.

What you've said, "Let capitalism do its thing" most closly relates to Say's law, created sometime before the 1930s. Which thinks that supply creates its own demand, and I think that most educated people understand that this is not the case. People screwed things up, and it will be people who will fix things. Again, capitalism can't fix itself....and "Let capitalism do its thing" is not even a real statement.

Please, if you're going to respond at least make it an educated response.

[Buzz]

Yes, I am suggesting that.

Wrecklessly throwing money at a problem does not fix it. This stimulus package is garbage - only 20% of it goes into effect within the next 18 months. The economy needs immediate and targeted help, not a bunch of ridiculous earmarks and special interest spending that goes to such stupidity as honey bee research, STD research, climate control research, metro park expansions, etc.

A big reason for the economic straits were in is the failure of Congress to oversee the housing market - who has been in control of Congress most of the last decade? democRATS.

This country needs tax cuts, for everyone, including small business and capital gains. It is liberal arrogance to think that because someone gets employed by the government they all the sudden become experts on how we should all spend our money. That is socialism / communism - the government machine dictates who gets what, not the free market. That's what we're in for for at least the next 3 yrs 10 mths

The free market doesn't dicate anything....supply and demand does, Say's law is outdated. Right now there is no consumer demand. The welfare check sent out to the intermediaries was intended to fix that problem by providing the business market with money for investments, research, and job creation. With job growth people could go out to the intermediaries and buy loans as well as tvs, and whatever else...creating more M1.

But as you can see, the idiot banks spent the 1st 400 billion on bonuses, buying other banks, vacations, and pussy. If the Bush people would have set some sort of standards....at least tried to set some sort of standards, we would be one step closer to recovery.

This is a mixed economy....UM is a by product of this country's social program.

[tpilews]

Yes, I am suggesting that.

Wrecklessly throwing money at a problem does not fix it. This stimulus package is garbage - only 20% of it goes into effect within the next 18 months.

Well, Americans can do the right thing in 2010 and vote Republicans back into Congress. Then, they'll be able to stop all this spending.

[tpilews]

What thing is capitalism supposed to do?


Let the strong survive. Those who don't adapt to the "new" market die off.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/armentano-d/armentano15.html


Laissez-faire economic ideas (deregulation, tax cuts) are currently out of favor but the fact remains that the Krugman and Keynesian policies of bailouts, deficit financing, and public works have never really worked. They didn't work in the U. S. in the 1930's; they didn't work in the 1990's in Japan.


They don't work because they prop up unsustainable investments in the private sector rather than clear the way for new entrepreneurship. And they don't work because government central planning is hopelessly naïve (they even have trouble mailing out rebate checks). Sometimes in economics (as in medicine) doing "nothing" (allowing the system to heal itself) works better than drugs with nasty side effects or bureaucratic attempts at reconstructive surgery.

[rickyleach]

i guess that means were going to kill off most of the detroit area.. DETROIT THE MOTORLESS CITY , WHERE THE GIRLS ARE PRETTY AND THE CARS ARE SSHITTY.

[RealSchool]

Well, Americans can do the right thing in 2010 and vote Republicans back into Congress. Then, they'll be able to stop all this spending.

Wow, just wow!!! They did such of good job of not spending when they were in charge huh?

Such hypocrites.

[tpilews]

i guess that means were going to kill off most of the detroit area.. DETROIT THE MOTORLESS CITY , WHERE THE GIRLS ARE PRETTY AND THE CARS ARE SSHITTY.

If they fail to evolve, then yeah. They pay their workers WAY too much. They put out shitty products for years. I think GM is putting out a few decent cars now, too little too late. The G8 is a very nice looking car. Why did the Prius do so well? It looks like a turd, but it gets good gas mileage. If GM hadn't been so slow to get in the fuel mileage game, they wouldn't be hurting this bad. The Volt, great concept, too long to get into production. They might sell a few. The Camaro. Again, too late getting to the "retro" party. It should have come out in 2007 or 2006 if they wanted to hit that market. They're going to sell most of those cars because 2010 may be the last year they produce it, if they even make it to production. Well, there are already some being seen in Canada. They have to make the Camaro in Canada because they can pay their workers half as much as American workers.

[RealSchool]

If they fail to evolve, then yeah. They pay their workers WAY too much. They put out shitty products for years. I think GM is putting out a few decent cars now, too little too late. The G8 is a very nice looking car. Why did the Prius do so well? It looks like a turd, but it gets good gas mileage. If GM hadn't been so slow to get in the fuel mileage game, they wouldn't be hurting this bad. The Volt, great concept, too long to get into production. They might sell a few. The Camaro. Again, too late getting to the "retro" party. It should have come out in 2007 or 2006 if they wanted to hit that market. They're going to sell most of those cars because 2010 may be the last year they produce it, if they even make it to production. Well, there are already some being seen in Canada. They have to make the Camaro in Canada because they can pay their workers half as much as American workers.

Other than great strip clubs, what has Tampa ever produced worth a crap?

[tpilews]

Wow, just wow!!! They did such of good job of not spending when they were in charge huh?

Such hypocrites.

I never said that Bush didn't spend money. Dems have been in control of the senate and congress since 2006. I think the first stimulus bill, the checks, were ridiculous. Government should not be interfering with the market. You can point fingers where ever you want. Both parties have fucked up for far too long. I just think you've seen this bailout and that bailout, this stimulus and that stimulus, and the economy is still tanking. Stop spending. Cut back the budget. What do you, personally, do if you're short money? Go out and buy solar panels to put on your roof so that you can save $50/month on your electric bill? No, you cut back your consumption. If you've got the money to do that project, then yeah, it's a wise investment. But, you don't spend money you don't have.

Here's your government spending, Doesn't look too out out of the norm considering we've been at war for the past seven years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/Us_gov_spending_histry_by_function_1902_2010.png

[Buzz]

Let the strong survive. Those who don't adapt to the "new" market die off.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/armentano-d/armentano15.html

Don't you know what got this country out of the great depression? Government spending. This crap you quoted is wrong....."Let the strong survive." This country is built on competition, but that statement alone doesn't have any value if you can't explain in your own words what it really means.

[bigboyBlue]

Is anyone else a bit concerned about having a second recession less than a hundred years after the first one? I know recession cycles are a result of supply/demand imbalance, but if this general time frame holds true for the future, it seems like by the time each generation is done paying off the debt of the previous one, the next generation will start piling it on again. Or is this too simplistic a view?