What a liar.....

[zilla]

Obama promised no middle class tax hike but is now considering taxing health care benefits. WOW!!!

[MICHDAD1]

Obama promised no middle class tax hike but is now considering taxing health care benefits. WOW!!!

It's the same machine, different gear.

[zilla]

Oooops my mistake, this makes it all better:

"several advisers say that while he will not propose changing the tax-free status of employee health benefits, neither will he oppose it if Congress does so."


What a joke.

[Mike Furley]

I'm not a fan of calling the president a liar.

For me, to call someone a liar is to charge someone of having the willful intent to mislead. I don't know if that's a fair charge against President Obama in this case becasue I haven't seen any evidence that he criticized taxing health care benefits while secretly harboring support for them.

Perhaps a better charge is that he is unprincipled?

Of course, his supporters might argue he is merely being pragmatic by rethinking the issue. Or, his position on the issue has "evolved".


I infer from your post that you are against taxing health care benefits. If that's the case, great. I agree with you. They are a terrible idea, as are all of the plans under consideration that will eventually lead to the nationalization of the health care industry.

I just think charges of lying and cheating are too casually thrown around these days, and aren't good for the country when they are constantly lobbed at the president.

[zilla]

"I don't know if that's a fair charge against President Obama in this case becasue I haven't seen any evidence that he criticized taxing health care benefits while secretly harboring support for them."


It was one of his main talking points against McCain in the election. McCain thought of it and Obama jumped on it as a bad idea.

Even when I go against Obama you feel the need to mess with me.

[Mike Furley]

It was one of his main talking points against McCain in the election. McCain thought of it and Obama jumped on it.

Even when I go against Obama you feel the need to mess with me.



I didn't forget about how he hammered McCain during the campaign with the issue. I just think you have to understand how Obama, a protege of Saul Alinsky, thinks.

For Obama, the ends justify the means. In this case, nationalizing health care is the end, and he'll accept practically any means to achieve that end. Similarly, during the campaign his being elected was the end and criticizing McCain's proposal was a means to that end.

Obama probably thinks taxing the health care benefits is the least best option to achieving his end, so it was "fair game" to bash McCain over the head with it. But if it is the only way by which he will achieve nationalized health care then he will accept it. This is what the elites refer to as "being nuanced".


As to messing with you, I thought that might be the peception when I made my post. It wasn't my intent though.

[zilla]

He devoted at least half his speech to criticizing McCain. "The Republican nominee has proposed to tax the health benefits that 156 million people get through the workplace as income."

"On health care, John McCain promises a tax credit," an announcer says in one of Obama's new ads, over images of families examining their bills. "But here's what he won't tell you: McCain would make you pay taxes on your health benefits, taxing your health care for the first time ever."


This Furley is being a liar. Half a speech and numerous ads against the idea and then 5 months in he is thinking of the same thing.

[The Michigan Man]

He devoted at least half his speech to criticizing McCain. "The Republican nominee has proposed to tax the health benefits that 156 million people get through the workplace as income."

"On health care, John McCain promises a tax credit," an announcer says in one of Obama's new ads, over images of families examining their bills. "But here's what he won't tell you: McCain would make you pay taxes on your health benefits, taxing your health care for the first time ever."


This Furley is being a liar. Half a speech and numerous ads against the idea and then 5 months in he is thinking of the same thing.

Absolutely it is a lie, especially given the short duration between broadcasting the attack ad above and then subsequently doing exactly the same thing. It was flat out deception to attack McCain for doing something that he obviously knew he was going to do all along.

It looks like it doesn't pay to be honest, John.

[Medic]

I'm not a fan of calling the president a liar.



Obama and his administration are either liars or accidental idiots. Remember during the campaign when health insurance reform was going to cost 75-80 billion? Let's see how that's worked out so far:

Medicare revamp (slipped into omnibus spending): 189 billion
Medicaid revamp (same) : 72 billion
Proposed UHS insurance changes before the Senate: 2 trillion

So we went from 75ish billion to 2.2 trillion dollars in one year. The more entertaining parts of this discussion will be where the money for this program is going to come from.

If you want to have a view "through the looking glass" here in California the state dabbled in this very thing, health care for everyone! 2 short years later we are essentially insolvent.

[MICHDAD1]

I'm not a fan of calling the president a liar.

He is a calculating, deliberate, willful, intentional, premeditated liar. Case closed.

[gator]

Obama promised no middle class tax hike but is now considering taxing health care benefits. WOW!!!

While I applaude you on being more open minded than I previously thought, my primary question is still: "How could you ever think that the government was going to bailout the banks, insurance companies, home mortgage business, car industry, provide healthcare for every American, and pass an enormous stimulus bill (which isn't even about stimulus) without raising taxes on everyone?" This is a suprise to you? The worst part is that this is only the beginning.

Edit: Please revisit the "California is a lesson...." thread.

[amazinblue]

...For me, to call someone a liar is to charge someone of having the willful intent to mislead. I don't know if that's a fair charge against President Obama in this case becasue I haven't seen any evidence that he criticized taxing health care benefits while secretly harboring support for them.

Perhaps a better charge is that he is unprincipled?

Of course, his supporters might argue he is merely being pragmatic by rethinking the issue. Or, his position on the issue has "evolved"...

I just think charges of lying and cheating are too casually thrown around these days, and aren't good for the country when they are constantly lobbed at the president.

Ok, let's look at a few of the words and phrases above - "unprincipled", "evolution of thought", "willful intent to mislead". Perhaps Mr. Obama was just very inexperienced and willing to say anything he felt would get him elected.

It appears his commitment to close Gitmo is changing, the estimate required to address this financial crisis has more than tripled, his plans and actions have not significantly reduced unemployment (in fact unemployment is far greater than he predicted it would be), his estimates on the cost of providing healthcare have more than doubled in mere days after defining his approach, even advocates of the gay / lesbian community can't believe how he's abandoned his campaign stances and commitments to that community ... I could go on.

The bottom line is - he's very naive and inexperienced, the theories he and his executive staff proposed are having a minimal affect on the problems they were intended to address, and his actions will have profound impact on both our economic and political structure for decades to come.

[Wolvrin704]

Not to mention that everytime he goes somewhere and says X bill needs passed so X company can stay in business watch out because they're going to close. He used the Colombus police dept graduating class earlier this year as an example for the bailout and now they're going to have to layoff those guys. Earlier this year he had a big press conference with Catepillar and the president of the company and Obama both said the company would be able to survive becaus eof the bailout and even hire back their laid off workers, instead they're close to closing their doors. Everything they have projected or put their fingers in has ended up being worse than projected or cost much more than we were told it would.

At some point the problems with Obama's policies will catch up with his poll numbers because people want more substance than personality and he won't be able to deliver.

[The Michigan Man]

Ok, let's look at a few of the words and phrases above - "unprincipled", "evolution of thought", "willful intent to mislead". Perhaps Mr. Obama was just very inexperienced and willing to say anything he felt would get him elected.

It appears his commitment to close Gitmo is changing, the estimate required to address this financial crisis has more than tripled, his plans and actions have not significantly reduced unemployment (in fact unemployment is far greater than he predicted it would be), his estimates on the cost of providing healthcare have more than doubled in mere days after defining his approach, even advocates of the gay / lesbian community can't believe how he's abandoned his campaign stances and commitments to that community ... I could go on.

The bottom line is - he's very naive and inexperienced, the theories he and his executive staff proposed are having a minimal affect on the problems they were intended to address, and his actions will have profound impact on both our economic and political structure for decades to come.

Being unethical and deceptive has nothing to do with being inexperienced. His inexperience merely made his deception less sophisticated. I'm sure he'll get a little savvier at it as he gets more comfortable.

When you consider that this office is the most important job on the planet, it is very disturbing that the words "naive" and "inexperienced" are used to describe its occupant. This is no place for on the job training - serving in the Illinois state Senate and for a few months as a US Senator (you can't count his absenteeism while campaigning as experience), has not prepared him to be President.

[amazinblue]

Another article about the lobbyists and the hard line that Obama is taking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/us/politics/19obama.html?th&emc=th

[zilla]

"While I applaude you on being more open minded than I previously thought"


All I care about is people telling the truth. Which by the way is in very short supply on this part of the website.

[gator]

All I care about is people telling the truth. Which by the way is in very short supply on this part of the website.


Well, I appreciate you calling yourself out.:D

[Wolvrin704]

"While I applaude you on being more open minded than I previously thought"


All I care about is people telling the truth. Which by the way is in very short supply on this part of the website.

I didn't realize I had stumbles into the tOSU part of the website. Where's Nutjob, Dandy Don and Minus 1?